Intrepid 5x4 newbie looking for LF advice

[johnha]

Hi All,

I’ve been in a bit of a quandary regarding my Intrepid 5x4 camera (the 1st generation ‘Kickstarter’ version). I contributed to the Kickstarter to help the cause and to get my hands on an LF camera - the project was delayed, my available time/motivation stalled and I didn’t get as far as looking for film holders or lenses.

I now have some Fidelity film holders on the way. I’m looking for advice on what to look for lens/board wise so I can price up some options and some advice on processing so I can get started. In the mean time I have a pinhole lens board for it which will be interesting to try.

I've worked out I need a Linhof/Technika board for whichever Copal shutter the lens has, hopefully I will be able to buy the two as a pair. I'm assuming I'm looking for a 150mm lens or so, I'm looking for a clean lens, but otherwise are there any other requirements I need to consider? Are there any suggestions or recommendations for particular lenses? I’m looking for something ‘reasonably’ priced to get me started.

As for processing, doing this myself at the moment would be a much bigger time constraint than loading/shooting/unloading. Many labs at least claim to do sheet film processing, is this a practical option (i.e. posting a few sheets of film in the box, getting the film & box returned etc)? I have the Mod 54 insert and dev tank, however loading it seems to be very tricky, with experience, is it practical to do this in changing bag or would a changing tent be easier?

Any thoughts & suggestions would be very welcome.

John.

 

[locutus]

Loading a Mod54 in a darkbag is less fiddly then spooling up a roll of 120.

 

[Dennis-B]

For a first lens, I'd consider something in the 180-210mm class. While these are slightly "long" compared to the 150 "normal" lens, the focal length allows for more camera movement (rise, fall, tilt, etc.) than the 150, since they have larger image circles. I'd then think in terms of a 90mm wide angle, and then a 150 "normal". The normal lens for my Cambo SC is a 180mm Wide Field Ektar. I just acquired a Sears Tower Press Camera (similar to a Speed Graphic), and the lens with it is a 150mm f/5.6 Symmar convertible.

There are 120 film adapters like the C2 from Calumet, but they're all in the "used" category, and will cost around $75-80 (USD). These are very handy, and fit the camera back like a 4x5 film holder.

In my area in the U.S., there are no local processors left which do E6 of any type. I have to mail my E6 to a processor in Kansas. A local lab still does C41 of all types, 35mm, roll, and sheet film, so I can have that done in just a few hours.

Good luck, and I hope you enjoy your Intrepid.

 

[jim10219]

Get a modern plasmat 150mm lens in a Copal shutter. That should be any 150/5.6 lens made in the last 30 years by Fuji, Rodenstock, Schneider, or Nikon. 150's are cheap compared to other focal lengths, so you might as well get a good one to start with. I recommend the Fujinon NW 150/5.6 because tend to be a bit cheaper and it's the newest version. As an added bonus, because they are plasmat designs, which are symmetrical, you can remove either the front or rear element and get a longer focal length, effectively making two lenses out of one. It won't be as sharp because they're not fully corrected with just the one element, but they're still not terrible. And you can always get a longer lens later if it bothers you. Also, plasmat designs have lots of coverage and aren't too large or heavy, so you can get plenty of movements out of them (likely more than your camera will allow), without having to carry around a brick.

I'd process my own B&W film. That's what I do, only I do it in trays. But I've thought about getting a mod54. Sheet film is expensive to buy and process, and if you can develop your own, it's well worth it. Even if it takes you a while to learn, it's worth it in the long run. Also, I've not had good experience with other places developing my sheet film. I get a lot of uneven development and scratches and films not being washed properly, etc. Roll film doesn't seem to be a problem. Most any place can handle that alright. But with sheet film I haven't been so lucky. As for color and slide, you may still want to send those out unless you've got a good system for that and/or do a lot of color or slide. I personally shoot about 90% B&W so if I were to develop my own color and slide film, I would be wasting chemicals, which means I wouldn't be saving any money. Plus there's some added level of difficulty and equipment. Though, due to the difficulty in finding a decent photo lab that can do sheet film, I may have to start looking in that direction one day.

Practice loading film with a sacrificial sheet before you start. It took me a while to get the hang of it, and there's nothing worse than wasting an entire trip because you loaded all of your film wrong and didn't know it. It's not hard to do, but if you've never done it before, it can be confusing. Remember, the cutouts go in the upper right hand corner when the film is in portrait orientation. No one ever says "portrait orientation" and when I started off, I loaded all of my film holders with the cutouts in the upper right hand corner in landscape orientation, thus making every one of my sheets backwards. Also practice with the camera, as the process is different and it will take some time to get used to all of the steps you have to go through in order. If you find yourself in a situation in the field (or studio) where you're having to rush, it helps a lot if you don't have to think about what your next step is and if you're missing something.

Also, get a good tripod, if you don't already have one.

 

[dasBlute]

Coolness awaits, getting a 4x5 negative on the light table should restore your fires...

- certainly use the pinhole, let the fun begin
- quality of shutter is most important when you're starting out
- fuji lenses are reasonably priced, very sharp, often in copal shutter
- process your own film, do this a lot, you'll need to iterate
enough make this almost mindless to get the advantages of LF, imho.
- keep track of your film holders as you develop, weed out the ones with light leaks
- I've always used darkened rooms, or a tent to load film, more space is better...
- make prints, as many as you can -for me- this is why of 4x5 and larger
- play, have fun, reconnect with why you got interested in 4x5 in the first place, push thru
the technical issues until you're getting a consistent negative. In the long run
film cost is negligible, don't be afraid to bracket, try the tilt, play with DOF, etc

-Tim

 

[TonyB65]

You might want to consider the Stearman press SP-445 developing tank if you're going to shoot a lot of 4x5, it uses less chemicals and is a very clever design that makes it easy to load film. It's not cheap but it's worth the money in the long run.

http://shop.silverprint.co.uk/Stear...h-Film-Processing-System/product/SP445/SP445/

 

[Ian Grant]

John, I'm not sure about the Intrepid but most cameras that use Linhof/Wista style lens boards and the Chinese clones will actually work fine with a plain flat lens board. That's all I've ever used with my Wist 45DX and a 65mm f8 Super Angulon, my 210 Symmar S sits on a cut down Sinar board - again flat, my 240mm Nikon W sits on a flat unpainted aluminium panel.

As for a 150mm lens, I use every thing from a 3 element Coke triplet MC 150mm f6.3 Geronar, a 1953/4 CZJ 150mm T (coated) f4.5 Tessar, a Xenar 150mm f4.5 as well as a later f5.6 version, although my main lens is a 150mm f5.6 Sironar N. All are very capable lenses by f22, you'd have problems telling which was used in large prints, the Geronar is a lot softer corners/edges wider open compared to the Sironar N which makes it a great portrait lens. The Tessar/Xenars fall somewhere in between.

Be aware of the reality of UK prices, there's a lot of sharks on Ebay (talking UK sellers) with high BIN (Buy It Now) prices that are way over the prices from dealers who'll actually give you a 3-6 month warranty

Ian

 

[johnha]

Thanks for the replies, lots of very useful advice in there. My preference for a 150mm lens is down to the Intrepid having three positions where the front standard can be mounted on the bed, the middle one is recommended for a 150mm - intermediate focal lengths may not work so well (I don't know and I'm aiming for the most idiot-proof setup to maximise my chances?). I'm not too bothered about specifics at this point, I'm looking for a working set-up which I can explore 'as-is' before buying more lenses, I anticipate it being a slow process.

I'm looking into direct positive paper as I don't have (and unlikely to get) a darkroom/enlarger setup, I've developed mono 35mm & 120 film before but won't be trying to do so with colour.The C2 film adapter looks interesting, apparently the Intrepid will take a Grafloc back and film magazine (don't know exactly what I'd need?) but the C2 looks a simpler option. The Stearman looks a neat option for developing, although I should try the Mod54 first. I have thought about a Nova deep tank with positive paper as it would minimise messing around with mixing & measuring chemicals each time (which are the most time-consuming and messy bits for me) - I'm assuming this would work but it would be further down the line.

Thanks for the reminder about sharks on eBay, I'll look for a real camera shop and see what they have - give me a chance to check things out beforehand.

Thanks again, John.

 

[Luckless]

Don't forget: Used film holders may or may not contain film, which may or may not be exposed. I use the few sheets of 'free' film I've gotten that way for practice/demonstrations.

I find that my Mod45 is easy enough to load in just a changing bag, but a changing tent or box would be a nice upgrade if you have the space/money to store and use one.
I just have the 27.5x27.5 paterson changing bag, and it has been fine. I use the empty paterson tank to hold the bulk of the bag up out of my way while I load the holders. I still find that the second film on either side is a bit fiddly to slot in properly, but the first and third are easy enough to set in at an angle and just slide the edge along till they fall in the slots. Doesn't take a lot of practice, but I prefer to do it when it is cool and not overly humid. Handling film in a changing bag while it is humid is a pain, but 4x5 is easier to deal with in my mind than 120 rolls in that case.

 

[scheimfluger_77]

Over the last year or so I have picked up 3 Fujinon W 180/5.6 lenses ranging from $100 to $125 dollars, including shipping and all from Japanese sellers. They did a good job describing the lens and two of them actually better than the description... practically brand new. Those two are the EBC multicoated variety, lettering on the outside of the barrel, with 280mm image circle. The latest one i just purchased is the single coated variety with the lettering inside the lens barrel. That one has an image circle of 305 mm, almost 8x10 territory. these were eBay purchases. All of them look nearly flawless, except for the shutter on the last one, it has a little corrosion on some of the chrome parts but it functions nicely.

 

[shutterfinger]

I use a Photoflex Changing Room https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...ex_AC_CROO1_Film_Changing_Room_25.html?sts=pi
Its tight for a Jobo 3 reel 2500 series tank , a single reel 2500 series tank and a Grafmatic but its fine for the Jobo single reel tank and some film holders.
I bought a similar tent from Japan with the arm sleeves in the zippered side but the sleeves are too close together to allow for easy movement on the inside.

 

[jim10219]

If you're not going to be using an enlarger, then I'd recommend going with a hybrid setup. Large format negatives scan well on a flatbed scanner. It takes some time to figure out the whole process, but it's a great way to do something with your photos without a darkroom. I use an Epson 4990, some Ronsonol, some imitation Mylar (Duratex) and Photoshop and can scan enough detail for 40" x 50" prints or bigger!

Another option, of course, is contact printing. There are many ways to do that, but they all have the downside of small prints (4x5). Still, cyanotypes, Van Dykes, and even contact printed silver gelatin aren't too difficult or expensive to pull off, and a whole lot of fun. The cyanotype (you can tone them if you hate blue) and Van Dykes don't even require a dark room.

 

[Alan Gales]

Badger Graphic sells well made, new Chinese Linhof/Technika style boards for $30 a pop. They are marked Shen Hao and should work fine on your Intrepid camera. I've used them on my Wehman to Technika step down board and like them. Of course you may be able to save a few bucks and find used ones on Ebay.

Scroll down to see the boards.

http://www.badgergraphic.com/opencart/index.php?route=product/category&path=2_22_95


I agree with the above recommendation of buying used Fuji lenses from Japan off Ebay. I bought a Fuji 180mm from a Japanese Seller which I am very happy with. Of course any modern offering from Schneider, Rodenstock, Nikon, or Caltar will be quite similar (sharp and contrasty).

 

[johnha]

Thanks again for the info, aside from the camera & lens it looks like film handling is going to be a challenge. As LF is completely new to me, I'll probably use the pinhole board while I get used to film handling (and possibly processing) while I look for a suitable lens & board. It looks like I need to think a bit more about how I'm going to load, unload & store film until I can organise processing.

John.

 

[Pioneer]

I love my little Intrepid, I have the original kickstarter version as well. I just use the boards I bought from Badger Graphics and have mounted an older Schneider Symmar 150/5.6 Convertible lens that is great. I also have a couple of others but that Schneider is the one I use the most. I agree that the shutter is probably the most important part. I fiddled around with an older lens mounted in a old shutter for quite some time before I realized that most of my problems were being caused by an unreliable shutter that changed speed almost at will. I was actually getting better results out of my pinhole because I was timing the exposures by counting, which turned out to be more reliable than that old Compur shutter. Most large format lenses are more than sharp enough to provide very good negatives and prints if the shutter is reliable.

I have, and use, a very nice changing tent when I have to but most of the time I just load and unload my film holders in my bathroom while standing at the sink. It is a whole lot easier to do when you have some room to work and your arms are not confined in a small tent. I wait until night time, close the door and lay the bathroom rug up against the bottom of the door. So far it has worked out really well and didn't require any changes to the bathroom.

I use film as well as positive paper and scan both on my Epson V500. I just lay the negative on the glass platen with a thick cardboard spacer to center it where it needs to be. Works out pretty well. Positive paper can just be scanned normally as you would do with a picture.

I do contact print my negatives in the bathroom as well but I am still learning how best to do this. I have set everything up so I can set it up, do my printing, develop my prints, and take it all down again in an hour or two in the evening. (My wife is not a great fan of leaving messes lying about.) I now have a couple of nice daylight developing options for my negatives but I just started out with some 8x10 plastic trays sitting in the bathtub. The daylight tanks are a little more convenient but no more accurate or useful than my trays are. I still use them a lot as that is also how I develop my prints.

It really doesn't take a whole lot to get started. It is easy to get overwhelmed by all the options that are available, and there are a bunch of them. God knows I have wasted my share of money on some of them. Just start out simple with the bare necessities and learn to work that way. It won't take long figure out that it is pretty simple to work with large format and it is much easier to troubleshoot your mistakes if you have a simple way of working. After doing it the simple way I now have more problems with remembering how to dial in a little tilt then I do with film handling.

Good luck and enjoy that little Intrepid. It is a fantastic camera and with that pinhole you can start shooting paper right away. Shoot some paper, dump it in a little developer, wash, fix and hang it to dry. Come back the next day and admire your handiwork!

Just remember, fiber paper curls like the devil when it dries.

 

[TonyB65]

Thanks again for the info, aside from the camera & lens it looks like film handling is going to be a challenge. As LF is completely new to me, I'll probably use the pinhole board while I get used to film handling (and possibly processing) while I look for a suitable lens & board. It looks like I need to think a bit more about how I'm going to load, unload & store film until I can organise processing.

John.

Loading and unloading in a changing bag is pretty straight forward, notched end of the film facing downwards towards the bottom right of the film holder as you slide the sheet in. The notch should finish in the bottom right of the sheet holder once loaded. Once the dark slide is fully into the holder then it's light sealed. Unloading is just the reverse when taking the sheet out. When loading you may need to check you don't have two sheets stuck together if it feels a bit stiff sliding the dark slide in, that's a mistake I've made which cost me a wasted sheet when I realised outside of the changing bag and discovered another sheet in the holder.

 

[Luckless]

The notch should finish in the bottom right of the sheet holder once loaded.

I feel like at least one of us is lacking in coffee today, and I'm not sure if it is you or me... If you have a regular film holder on the table in front of you, dark slide slot facing away from you and loading gate pointed toward you, then shouldn't the film notch be on your left hand side?

 

[MattKing]

Loading and unloading in a changing bag is pretty straight forward, notched end of the film facing downwards towards the bottom right of the film holder as you slide the sheet in. The notch should finish in the bottom right of the sheet holder once loaded.

I feel like at least one of us is lacking in coffee today, and I'm not sure if it is you or me... If you have a regular film holder on the table in front of you, dark slide slot facing away from you and loading gate pointed toward you, then shouldn't the film notch be on your left hand side?

I expect one of you loads from the top, while the other loads from the bottom.

 

[TonyB65]

I feel like at least one of us is lacking in coffee today, and I'm not sure if it is you or me... If you have a regular film holder on the table in front of you, dark slide slot facing away from you and loading gate pointed toward you, then shouldn't the film notch be on your left hand side?

Yes, but I load it looking down the holder, so we're both right, I'm left handed, we tend to do things a little differently but the end result is the same.

 

[shutterfinger]

http://zo-d.com/stuff/photography/how-to-load-4x5-sheet-film-holders.html

 

[jim10219]

Ha! See! This is how I got confused my first time! One man's "upper right" is another man's "lower left"! They're both right because they are both describing the same thing, but they sound like complete opposites! We should describe more than just the orientation of the film. The orientation of the film holder matters too.

Ah, the good news is, if you put it in backwards the first time, there's only one other way to do it.

 

[Luckless]

Well clearly I should have had more coffee before posting earlier, as I could have been far clearer with my previous comment... But really the best way to figure out what way the film goes is to just look at the photos from people showing how to do it, and avoid thinking about if someone meant the "The right hand side of the bottom edge" vs "the bottom of the right hand side edge" when describing the "bottom right"... Plus whether or not they're loading the slot while it is facing up or down. But isn't English fun?

But as a mildly paranoid person, I can say that anyone who loads film so that the notch is towards the dark slide slot end of the film holder rather than the film loading flap end such that you can't double check its location before closing the flap and putting the dark slide back is clearly a maniac of some manner and not to be trusted...

I've also taken to using masking tape for labels after loading film, which double as dark slide safeties to keep it from moving, then applying more tape to clearly mark stuff as exposed after usage. So far I've not double exposed anything.

Ah, the good news is, if you put it in backwards the first time, there's only one other way to do it.

Well, if you load it with the backside facing out the first time, you can still 'flip it over 180', and load it backwards in the other direction...

 

[johnha]

Umm... OK the last few posts have had the potential to be confusing, but it has made me realise there's only one set of notches on the film (i.e. they're either top-right OR bottom left - not both). It sounds sensible to have them at the flap end of the holder so you have the opportunity to check. The suggestion about using masking tape is also a good idea.

 

[TonyB65]

Umm... OK the last few posts have had the potential to be confusing, but it has made me realise there's only one set of notches on the film (i.e. they're either top-right OR bottom left - not both). It sounds sensible to have them at the flap end of the holder so you have the opportunity to check. The suggestion about using masking tape is also a good idea.

If you're looking at the bottom of the flap end of the holder from the top, they're on the right, if you're looking at the flap end of the folder from that end, they're on the left, that's it.