Interesting news from Fujifilm

[Thomas.Goehler]

The point of this thread is the presumably "good" news regarding a film revival, maintained by Mr Serger.

 

[Xmas]

The thread title is 'interesting...' It is of interest to me that we spend very little time on this fora talking about colour wet printing problems... But Fuji are still selling it.

Henning is an optimist yes but that is an independent matter.

 

[Thomas.Goehler]

Perhaps you should open a dedicated thread on this topic then.

 

[AgX]

The thread title is 'interesting...' It is of interest to me that we spend very little time on this fora talking about colour wet printing problems... But Fuji are still selling it
.

But Fuji's main customers are industrial finishers.

 

[Xmas]

But Fuji's main customers are industrial finishers.

Yes that is part of my point if the finishers find a new mechanism Fuji loses a lot of market.

 

[Henning Serger]

Henning is an optimist yes but that is an independent matter.

Well, for lots of people here being an optimist seems to be a crime....
Some people here are so full of negative energy.

One of the problems here is that simply several people are unable to read correctly. I've always written very differentiated about the status of the market, and have proved that with all data which is available. I've always explained in detail where the big problems are.
And I've said that a general film revival is possible, not guaranteed, if certain action is started.
But the haters of a potential film revival are not interested in a differentiated exchange of information.

These people said some years ago that instant film will be the first film format which will be completely killed by digital.
Now they are suffering because the big boom in instant camera and film sales show impressively how wrong they've been with their assessment.
Now they are saying there will be no film revival with other formats.
But the manufacturers and distributors already see (and have partly published) increasing sales in some categories (e.g. BW film; professional colour film).
Therefore the haters and doom and gloom people are now attacking these news. They are captured in their cognitive dissonance.

These people hate Simon Galley and his collegues from Ilford, because they have successfully made the turnaround and are planning for the next decades of film production with their new factory.
They hate Fujifilm for the success with Instax film and new RA-4 papers for photo books.
They hate Impossible Project for the revival of film for Polaroid cameras.
They hate Adox for the revival of the Agfa papers MCC and MCP and the new Adox films and chemistry.
They hate Bergger for the new Pancro 400 and Foma for the 320 film.
They hate new established film labs like Indie film lab, FIND lab, Filmboxlab, little film lab, Carmencita, UK Film Lab, meinfilmlab, analogfilmlab and several other new labs worldwide for their success.
They hate Film Ferrania for their efforts establishing a sustainable film production again in Ferrania.
They hate all companies who are working hard for a sustainable future for film, and who are convinced that such a future is possible.

From hate and negative energy never something positive will arise.

Concerning the ridiculous lies one German doom and gloom prayer has recently told here:
1. It is extremely easy to get E6 developed in just two (!) days in Germany via mail order. I am using two of those labs regularly. Lots of labs are offering that service: Those labs are developing E6 each day. The same day your film comes in by mail it will be developed, and the same day it will be sent back to you.
If you are living in the same city of these labs, you get of course your film back the same day you bring it to the lab.
Germany has an excellent infrastructure for E6 developing (and for C41 and BW as well, of course).
2. The quoted article in the German magazine Der Spiegel is extremely one-sided (focused on only one photo finisher) and ignoring all other parts of the current market for film photography in Germany. It is an example for extremely bad journalism. And it does not characterise the market generally.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[kuparikettu]

Thanks Henning.

 

[xo-whiplock]

Let's not forget that it's the "haters" that believe that the camera made the shots "professional" and you had to buy the latest and greatest "pro" camera, to get better shots than before and everyone else that does not have that new camera yet. So, for at least a time, those that bought the latest and greatest were in a select group of "professionals." Then the cycle would repeat in 6 to 7 months... over and over for like 15 years. Now, we have reached a point where there are no "better" cameras coming for these haters. The "best" was made and put out 5 years ago, and since then, they have not been able to improve upon it in any real sense, and that's why one of the reason for the huge drop in sales of DSLR. The other is that smart phones now produce better images than the DSLR of 5 years ago. All that's happend in the the DSLR world is declining sales and no real customer grabbing improvements. The advancements promised for DSLR "professionals" reached its apex about 3 to 4 years ago. No more money will be spent for R&D of DSLRs. This is why they are haters. It's because a 4x5 film camera and a flatbed scanner of slide film will blow away anything DSLR. I'd be pissed too if after some 15 years of buying into the lie that digital would be the end of film, and then find out digital for professional photography is in the process of dying out, and film is reclaiming its rightful place in the minds of a new generation that are not buying into the lies of how great digital will one day become. They've see it fail in their early lifetime, and have seen film exceed expectations. Something digital was never able to do.

 

[Don Promillo]

The Spiegel article is just the usual german press clickbait. A company paid them a dinner to include "Cewe" a few times and start a stupid controversy on their forums.
Cewe was already a huge quality lottery when film was mainstream.

The next topic will be something about a DJI Phantom.

Getting film or Chemicals in Germany takes one or two days, depending on the speed of the delivery. Getting film developed takes under a week, often faster.
The next local shop for literarily everything analogue is "Spuersinn" in Braunschweig or "Fotoimpex" in Berlin, just a short car trip away from here in case when you do not want to order online for some weird reason.

Getting rid of used chemicals is not a problem, it is collected either by a Schadstoffmobil or at the local recycling center.

Thanks to the internet and today's logistics it never has been as easy to shoot analogue film as today.

Need film? Order it from home and get it via mail a day later. Want to get your film developed? Put it in an envelope and wait a few days for it to magically reappear in your mailbox.

 

[georg16nik]

I think, Henning is whistling in the dark (as a German proverb has it) and I guess he knows it, too...

Thomas.Goehler,

you “think” and you “guess” too much.

Are you Mac or PC?

 

[Thomas.Goehler]

Thomas.Goehler,

you “think” and you “guess” too much.

Are you Mac or PC?

No, it's not me who guesses too much. I am very realistic. If you want to analyse my postings linguistically, you should work harder and more properly. I'm quite certain about the future of film-based photography: it will remain on a low level, possibly a little more expensive than today, but I do not see a large-scale revival anywhere on the horizon, no mattter what Henning Serger's phantasy lets you believe.

Whether I am Mac or PC does not seem to be important in this context or do I get you wrong here? I must admit that I do not understand the question, perhaps some hidden joke? I don't know.

 

[Thomas.Goehler]

So, Henning, everybody who has got a different opinion from yours is a hater and a ridiculous liar? You should think twice about your choice of words apart from trying to think not too one-sided yourself.
As I said, I like film-based photography very much, but I am a realist whereas you are a propagandist, possibly fuelled by some yet unknown source (or why do you propagate these "news" at the moment across several forums at the same time?). You acuse others of not reading the facts properly when you yourself only pick out only the favorable bits.
Example?
Of course you can get E6 or C41 developed in a day or two, but then you pay! The ordinary photographer wants to go to the drugstore next door and get decent pics. This is hardly possible anymore. I live next door to a Rossmann drugstore which sends films to a Fuji lab. If I bring my films on Monday I might get them back by Thursday or Friday. Quality is lousy compared to prints from the 90s, when I paid more for each pic. Everybody knows that the cheapest pics for 1 ct can only be used to make a rough evaluation. For a film revival those big labs must go back to the quality they once offered and this is not going to happen due to very simple economic reasons.
The SPIEGEL article might be one-sided because it only talks about CEWE, but CEWE is the biggest lab chain, no matter what Fuji/Eurocolor, allcop, Orwo etc. do and tell.
And where is the other side which reports about thousands of satisfied customers who get wonderful prints for a reasonable price that everybody can afford? And I am not talking about good but expensive minilab quality. And I am not talking about wonderful labs such as Photostudio 13 in Stuttgart which does wonders when it comes to developing and printing, but a 4/6" black and white print from them costs more than 5€ (5,50$). If your dreams of a film revival should come true, then the photographers must be attracted by reasonable prices and I don't see this happening. Film will survive in a little niche, it will be for experts and die-hard fans and it won't be cheap.

 

[JBrunner]

So this is what a German high school is like...

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

...but I do not see a large-scale revival anywhere on the horizon, no mattter what Henning Serger's phantasy lets you believe.

Neither does anybody else. Revival does not mean reincarnation. Perhaps you confuse the meaning of the two?

I know of no one who believes the film markets will be reincarnated to their previous peaks. How did you read that from Henning's posts? I don't see that anywhere.

Personally I have seen lots of small anecdotal signs where I live of a change in the trend. And Henning's posts merely add a little bigger-picture credibility to some of those anecdotal observations.

In other words, what he says often rings true with what I see. It's not the absolute that counts here. It's the relative. Where things currently are—or once were—is far less important than where they are headed.

Standing in the surf as the tide changes it is impossible to know the exact moment. But that doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

Ken

 

[Henning Serger]

So, Henning, everybody who has got a different opinion from yours is a hater and a ridiculous liar?

No, not everybody. I've never said that. And people who are able to read know that.

As I said, I like film-based photography very much, but I am a realist whereas you are a propagandist, possibly fuelled by some yet unknown source (or why do you propagate these "news" at the moment across several forums at the same time?).

Facts:
1. I've posted this news about Fujifilm only one time, here on apug in this thread.
2. That I am a "propagandist fuelled by some unknown source" is just again the same stupid lie you and your conspiracy theory friends in Germany are spreading for years.
It has absolutely nothing to do with reality.
Fujifilm or anyone else paying me or anyone else for making such a post in a forum? Hahaha, you simply know nothing at all about this industry or marketing. I don't know the marketing people at Fujifilm, and they don't know me. Period.
This news was published on the photo news portal photoscala. There I've found it. And I have it shared here because I've thought it is of interest for some people here.

I am using Instax wide film (as I am using other films from Fuji, Ilford, Adox, Kodak, Foma, Agfa etc.). I am just happy that these films are doing well, and I can continue to use it. That's all.

You are really so totally naive and think some of the film manufacturers will give someone money for such a simple posting? Try it, get in contact with Fuji, Kodak, Ilford etc. and suggest them that you share news about them in forums and they should pay you for it.
Just do it, try it!
But I can give you the answer: No one will give you a reply for that suggestion. They will just ignore you.

I am educating younger photographers, especially in using film. I have spent lots of my own money to do that. For decades I am working ehrenamtlich in different youth projects.

You don't now anything about me. Nevertheless you are telling lies about me.
Show finally a bit of character and stop that bullshit.

Example?
Of course you can get E6 or C41 developed in a day or two, but then you pay!

You can get E6 for only 4 or 4,50€ this way. That's very cheap for such a professional lab service. And C41 is even a little bit cheaper.
Saying here that fast development in Germany is expensive is a lie, it has nothing to do with reality.

The ordinary photographer wants to go to the drugstore next door and get decent pics. This is hardly possible anymore. I live next door to a Rossmann drugstore which sends films to a Fuji lab. If I bring my films on Monday I might get them back by Thursday or Friday. Quality is lousy compared to prints from the 90s,

Well, my experiences are different: My Rossmann drugstore also sends to Fuji, and the quality is good concerning the very low price it costs. And the quality is much better than the quality the digital shooters get at the Kodak photo kiosks in these drugstores (which are also more expensive than film prints).
If you want better quality ( I mostly do) use a professional lab. You get what you pay for.
It is the same with digital: There you also have to pay for real quality prints. So this is not an only film related topic.

Film will survive in a little niche, it will be for experts and die-hard fans and it won't be cheap.

O.k., that is a guess from your crystal ball.
I see this different, because of the latest demand data of the industry and some other parameters of economic developments, both general and in the photo industry.
It makes no sense wasting time here in a discussion on that, we will not agree.
In 10 years we will see.

So far the track record supports much more the "optimists", and not so much the doom and gloom sayers.
I well remember the predictions at Photokina 2002:
- instant film will be the first format that will completely die
- until 2010 film will be dead, no film anymore; and even if small parts survive, it will be outragouesly expensive at 2010
- at 2004 after the Ilford insolvency the same people said that it will only be some years that Ilford will collapse again
- despite all the predictions, and despite a drop of about 95% in film sales from the record level in 2000, film did get not prohibitive expensive; in some categories it es even cheaper today compared to 20-25 years ago if inflation is considered.

 

[xo-whiplock]

How about we sift the chafe from the wheat here? When anyone speaks of the film market, we must use our brains and understand that there is a "consumer" and a "professional" side to the market. Sales peaks from the past were driven by consumers. We all know these consumers were won over by digital a long time ago. Many are returning to film now, after realizing all that digital has to offer them. A new younger group of consumers are diving into instant film in mass. It's a safe bet they will also buy traditional films as well at some point. The trend now for consumers is to move away from digital and towards film. Professionals are also taking up film again for when their jobs allow it, and for personal use for many different reasons, but the main one is just like the general consumers, digital has given all it has to offer them, and they find it lacking in providing personal satisfaction like film provides them.

Now about the word "propaganda"... It means to promote an ideology. In a film group, promoting the ideology that film is superior to members of a film group, and that sales are improving, and sales are going to keep improving, is both good news and promoting a system of ideas regarding film. Being pro or con, positive or negative towards film has a lot to say about whether or not you love film or just say you do. We can judge this by our words and actions.

P.S. The critics that can't read... OMG!

 

[wblynch]

Well I guess the thread has degenerated to nothingness.

I think I will stop at Walgreen's on the way home and buy four rolls of Fujifilm Xtra400 for $12.

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

I'm not sure what there is to argue about here. I doubt Fujifilm is checking internet forums to interpret their sales figures. Likewise, I doubt that naysaying and declaring "Film is dead!" matters to anyone who has any influence over manufacturing.

Processing times in big cities are shorter than elsewhere. If one needs a lab that can turn around E-6 or C-41 in 4 hours, they exist in major markets like New York and Los Angeles, where one is more likely to need such a service. From here in Hawai'i, I can ship to LA, three days there by regular Priority Mail, one day there, three days back; and quicker if I have enough of a reason to justify FedEx overnight service.

For consumers, I think the main attraction of the smartphone is the combination of photography and communication. Families and friends are all spread out in different cities, and it's much easier to share electronic images and video than prints. Eventually they'll all disappear, but so will grandma, and she wants those pictures of her grandkids NOW, and isn't complaining about the image quality on her laptop screen or her smartphone.

That said, I've seen Instax cameras in the wild here, being used by ordinary families, not hipsters who think it's cool, but just regular folks who want to share prints on the spot, and have people close at hand to share them with. I suspect the popularity of instant cameras in Japan bleeds over to Hawai'i as well, since we have a large Japanese-American population, many of whom visit the home country, and lots of Asian tourists.

Enjoy it while we've got it!

 

[xo-whiplock]

... Enjoy it while we've got it!

You mean our life here on earth, right? Film has been here over 100 years and here's to another 100 years.
BTW, the photos will also last about that long too. ;D

 

[Sirius Glass]

Well I guess the thread has degenerated to nothingness.

I think I will stop at Walgreen's on the way home and buy four rolls of Fujifilm Xtra400 for $12.

Oh it has been posts about nothing for quite a while. I am waiting for some meaningful news or announcement to show up. That will happen after the Twelveth of Never.

 

[Xmas]

I'm not sure what there is to argue about here. I doubt Fujifilm is checking internet forums to interpret their sales figures. Likewise, I doubt that naysaying and declaring "Film is dead!" matters to anyone who has any influence over manufacturing.

Processing times in big cities are shorter than elsewhere. If one needs a lab that can turn around E-6 or C-41 in 4 hours, they exist in major markets like New York and Los Angeles, where one is more likely to need such a service. From here in Hawai'i, I can ship to LA, three days there by regular Priority Mail, one day there, three days back; and quicker if I have enough of a reason to justify FedEx overnight service.

For consumers, I think the main attraction of the smartphone is the combination of photography and communication. Families and friends are all spread out in different cities, and it's much easier to share electronic images and video than prints. Eventually they'll all disappear, but so will grandma, and she wants those pictures of her grandkids NOW, and isn't complaining about the image quality on her laptop screen or her smartphone.

That said, I've seen Instax cameras in the wild here, being used by ordinary families, not hipsters who think it's cool, but just regular folks who want to share prints on the spot, and have people close at hand to share them with. I suspect the popularity of instant cameras in Japan bleeds over to Hawai'i as well, since we have a large Japanese-American population, many of whom visit the home country, and lots of Asian tourists.

Enjoy it while we've got it!

Hi David

Instant cameras have taken off again here in UK as well.
iPhones can do real quality shots. They have destroyed the wedding and hot news market people.
As well as compact mirrors.
Even monkeys and parrots are in the act.

 

[xo-whiplock]

Those that want to do photography use film, and those that can't use digital.

 

[pdeeh]

Those that want to do photography use film, and those that can't use digital.

Very open-minded and inclusive of you.

 

[xo-whiplock]

Very open-minded and inclusive of you.

“East is East and West is West and never the twain shall meet,” http://www.crisismagazine.com/2014/good-fences

Film must exert its predominance if photography is to survive.

 

[Xmas]

“East is East and West is West and never the twain shall meet,” http://www.crisismagazine.com/2014/good-fences

40 Hail Marys can't do you any harm then

Those that want to do photography use film, and those that can't use digital.

For the c- in statistical sampling