Interesting news from Fujifilm

[railwayman3]

The big problem is only one shop I know off in London is selling new film cameras, (plastic) but I can buy film on Sunday 09:00 to 17:00 in major pharmacies 120 and 35mm (I've ignored the Leica Ms.)

The second is film labs are thin on the ground.

Slightly OT, but I called in our local (small) branch of Boots (big pharmacy/household chain, for non-UK folk), and was pleased to see a small, but adequate, selection of Fuji colour neg films and disposable cameras on the shelves, with, particularly, two 120 Ilford HP5+ B&W films. The latter looked lonely, so I decided to buy them, and the assistant was very interested in whether I did my own processing, etc. (she said she had previously worked in a C-41 lab). She then said that they still get quite enquiries for E6 processing (which the shop no longer accepted), so I was able to give her the names of two UK mail order labs which I deal with.

(And, across the street, Poundland had a stack of fresh (Oct 2017) 24exp Agfa Vista 200 colour neg (at £1 each naturally!))

 

[Peltigera]

Just out of interest, the film sold by Poundland is no longer Agfa Vista+ but just plain Agfa Vista - the cassette is a plain magenta with no branding. Not sure if the difference is significant or not.

 

[Ricardo Miranda]

Just out of interest, the film sold by Poundland is no longer Agfa Vista+ but just plain Agfa Vista - the cassette is a plain magenta with no branding. Not sure if the difference is significant or not.

It is just cosmetic change.
Film is the same "Made in Japan".

 

[railwayman3]

It is just cosmetic change.
Film is the same "Made in Japan".

I noticed that. I'd guess that the unbranded magenta cassette is just to save money by using the same packing for all own-branded films supplied by Fuji. I've seen exactly the same plain maganta cassette on an own-brand film bought from a chain store in Austria last year. Kodak also seem to be now using generic cassettes for consumer C-41, with simple yellow-and-black design rather than four-colour printing, presumable also as a cost-cutting exercise.

 

[Henning Serger]

Noel,

I will not comment about all in your post because it is again a weird mix of prejudices, completely wrong statements, conspiracy theories, insulting comments about other forum members and the usual apug doom and gloom myths.
Sorry, but you don't know at all what is currently really happening in the photo film industry.

But saying Kodak have published a number (300) means it was a PR release not necessarily factual ........

Totally wrong. Source was an independant journalist visiting the factory.

Simon how many staff Harmann have as who needs another PR statement......

In contrast to you I know Simon personally from my factory visit in Mobberley and my meeting on the Ilford booth last Photokina.
He is an absolutely honourable man. And there is no reason at all for me to doubt the numbers he has given us on the factory tour.
They were very open minded at the tour and clearly talking about the current problems and obstacles in the business. No PR "Bla-bla talk" from them at all, but facts and detailed analysis. And they also gave detailed reasons why they believe in the future of film and do further investments.

The big problem is only one shop I know off in London is selling new film cameras,

New film cameras are currently not the bottleneck for a film revival, not at all. From 2001 to 2007 alone more than 80 million new film cameras have been sold (official data from CIPA, the organisation of camera manufacturers).
And more than 200 million film cameras produced before are also still on the market.
We have an extremely big surplus of film cameras on the market.
Today the film camera shop is at your home: Shopping online at Ebay and / or in the market places of photo forums or at specialised used camera shops.
Never before in photo history it has been so easy to get good film cameras. And they have never been so cheap.

And by the way: Last Photokina Nikon and Canon reps visited some major film manufacturers and told them that they are indeed currently discussing / thinking about bringing new film cameras to the market in the next years. So even the digital camera manufacturers (which have been hit by an enormous 65% decrease in digital camera sales in the last 4,5 years) are realising that there is something positive going on in the market for film photography.

The second is film labs are thin on the ground.

Lab capacity is definitely not the bottleneck for a film revial, because the currently installed lab capacity worldwide is sufficient to handle 3-4x of the current film demand.
And even new labs have been opened in the last years.
The lab machinery for a new lab can be bought brand new from manufacturers like Hostert, technolab, Jobo, Saal (Agfa), Fujifilm or Noritsu. Completely rebuilt lab machines can also be bought, e.g. from Saal and some other specialists. Some manufacturers have even specialised on making spare parts for lab machines.
All you need is there on the market for installing a new lab or keep an established lab running.

There are lots of labs with excellent mail order service. And lots of so far only local labs have now added mail order service to their business.
And mail order service is often the most convenient and cost effective film developing service:
- no need for time consuming (time = money because you have opportunity costs) ways by car / bus / metro to the next local lab. No costs for fuel or tickets.
- with mail order your lab is only "some hundred meters away" with the next letterbox / mail box. Mail order cost is often lower than costs for fuel / tickets / opportunity costs you have using a local lab somewhere in your city.
So it is extremely easy to get your films developed using mail order.

The instant cameras and instant film were killed by the mini labs.

Sorry, again wrong. Use of instant cameras has been quite independant from mini labs. Very different, barely connected markets. Polaroid had its biggest economic success even in the time after the introduction of mini labs.

You are totally captured in your "film is dead" ideology.
But Ilford is planning a new factory, Film Ferrania is restructuring their production capabilities, Fujifilm is investing in silver-halide products, Impossible Project and their production partner InovisCoat are investing, Adox is investing and offering new products, New55 is investing, Tetenal and Spur are offering new products, new professional labs have been opened, lots of so far local labs are now adding mail order service to their services, lots of successful film photography Kickstarter projects lately .....and so on.
So, most of those who are working in the industry simply are convinced that film has a future.
Their activities are contradicting your opinion. They most likely know their own business and the film market better than you.

Regards,
Henning

 

[Sal Santamaura]

...But Ilford is planning a new factory...

Reading this statement was a reminder that I'd not checked lately whether the owner of HARMAN's Mobberley site had appealed Cheshire East Council's rejection of its redevelopment plan. Some searching reveals that an appeal was filed in late June. Although the Secretary of State, to whom the appeal was made, will not hold a public hearing on the matter until early next year, and a decision must follow that activity, I consider this positive news.

There could be nothing better for the long-term future of HARMAN than a "right-sized" facility. Also, with the development plan apparently calling for HARMAN's landlord (LPC Living, the developer) to underwrite some if not all of the cost involved with relocating equipment, odds of a HARMAN site lease extension beyond its current expiration -- approximately ten years from now -- would be greatly improved. Here's wishing LPC Living great success with the appeal!

 

[Xmas]

Noel,

I will not comment about all in your post because it is again a weird mix of prejudices, completely wrong statements, conspiracy theories, insulting comments about other forum members and the usual apug doom and gloom myths.
Sorry, but you don't know at all what is currently really happening in the photo film industry.



Totally wrong. Source was an independant journalist visiting the factory.



In contrast to you I know Simon personally from my factory visit in Mobberley and my meeting on the Ilford booth last Photokina.
He is an absolutely honourable man. And there is no reason at all for me to doubt the numbers he has given us on the factory tour.
They were very open minded at the tour and clearly talking about the current problems and obstacles in the business. No PR "Bla-bla talk" from them at all, but facts and detailed analysis. And they also gave detailed reasons why they believe in the future of film and do further investments.



New film cameras are currently not the bottleneck for a film revival, not at all. From 2001 to 2007 alone more than 80 million new film cameras have been sold (official data from CIPA, the organisation of camera manufacturers).
And more than 200 million film cameras produced before are also still on the market.
We have an extremely big surplus of film cameras on the market.
Today the film camera shop is at your home: Shopping online at Ebay and / or in the market places of photo forums or at specialised used camera shops.
Never before in photo history it has been so easy to get good film cameras. And they have never been so cheap.

And by the way: Last Photokina Nikon and Canon reps visited some major film manufacturers and told them that they are indeed currently discussing / thinking about bringing new film cameras to the market in the next years. So even the digital camera manufacturers (which have been hit by an enormous 65% decrease in digital camera sales in the last 4,5 years) are realising that there is something positive going on in the market for film photography.



Lab capacity is definitely not the bottleneck for a film revial, because the currently installed lab capacity worldwide is sufficient to handle 3-4x of the current film demand.
And even new labs have been opened in the last years.
The lab machinery for a new lab can be bought brand new from manufacturers like Hostert, technolab, Jobo, Saal (Agfa), Fujifilm or Noritsu. Completely rebuilt lab machines can also be bought, e.g. from Saal and some other specialists. Some manufacturers have even specialised on making spare parts for lab machines.
All you need is there on the market for installing a new lab or keep an established lab running.

There are lots of labs with excellent mail order service. And lots of so far only local labs have now added mail order service to their business.
And mail order service is often the most convenient and cost effective film developing service:
- no need for time consuming (time = money because you have opportunity costs) ways by car / bus / metro to the next local lab. No costs for fuel or tickets.
- with mail order your lab is only "some hundred meters away" with the next letterbox / mail box. Mail order cost is often lower than costs for fuel / tickets / opportunity costs you have using a local lab somewhere in your city.
So it is extremely easy to get your films developed using mail order.



Sorry, again wrong. Use of instant cameras has been quite independant from mini labs. Very different, barely connected markets. Polaroid had its biggest economic success even in the time after the introduction of mini labs.

You are totally captured in your "film is dead" ideology.
But Ilford is planning a new factory, Film Ferrania is restructuring their production capabilities, Fujifilm is investing in silver-halide products, Impossible Project and their production partner InovisCoat are investing, Adox is investing and offering new products, New55 is investing, Tetenal and Spur are offering new products, new professional labs have been opened, lots of so far local labs are now adding mail order service to their services, lots of successful film photography Kickstarter projects lately .....and so on.
So, most of those who are working in the industry simply are convinced that film has a future.
Their activities are contradicting your opinion. They most likely know their own business and the film market better than you.

Regards,
Henning

Well I'll try few
I stopped using Fuji slide film about 06 because the UK postal service had failed to deliver a pre adressed envelope two times in about 40 samples.
So I switched to c41, because there was a 20 minute mini lab on Sunday local to the street markets where I was doing street shooting. They could do ten x36 films to CD while I had coffee next door.

I had never lost a kodachrome mailer before kodachrome 25 was stopped.

Then the 20 minute lab closed so I home processed the c41.

The federal judge who decided on the damages that Kodak should pay Polariod for instant patent violation said only 900 million USD (a reduction x10) cause of market saturation from 20 minute mini labs and easy to use 35mm cameras.

The text is available on the web. You are the info groupie not me.

When I replace a mobile phone I buy in a local shop when I buy film I buy in local shop when I buy sodium thiosuphate I buy in local shop. My local town pharmacy 20 minutes bus away has Ilford 120 film on shelf.

Lots of people don't do mail order.

My friends in 2nd hand camera trade say good quality photo equipment is becoming much more difficult.

When a camera has been stored badly for ten years it is uneconomic to repair. Sover Wong says if F2 shutter needs replacing buy another F2.

I have not said 'film is dead' merely you are regurgating PR bovine by product. You admit you listen to siren voices, try some better ones.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rcjpags7JT8

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

And by the way: Last Photokina Nikon and Canon reps visited some major film manufacturers and told them that they are indeed currently discussing / thinking about bringing new film cameras to the market in the next years. So even the digital camera manufacturers (which have been hit by an enormous 65% decrease in digital camera sales in the last 4,5 years) are realising that there is something positive going on in the market for film photography.

This does not surprise me one bit. It does make me angry. Very angry. But not in the way that may seem on the surface. And I'll just leave it at that. The intervention was successful, I've almost completed my recovery program, and I do not wish to suffer a relapse.

Go Ilford, Film Ferrania, Fujifilm, Impossible Project/InovisCoat, Adox, New55, Tetenal, Spur, and all of the others with vision...

Ken

 

[Roger Cole]

It makes you angry they are considering bringing out new film cameras?

What?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk and 100% recycled electrons - because I care.

 

[Prest_400]

It makes you angry they are considering bringing out new film cameras?

What?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk and 100% recycled electrons - because I care.

I guess it id not anger against new film cameras, rather than Canikon leaving film behind and making big bucks in the digital revolution. And now that things are better they come back.

Kind of a fair weather friend.


<Beamed through Tapatalk relay>

 

[RattyMouse]

Henning,

Do you know where Fujifilm actually makes their film? I am curious to know where their factory is located and am fairly amazed that this information is not out there on the web. It appears to be a very well guarded secret!

 

[rbultman]

I guess it id not anger against new film cameras, rather than Canikon leaving film behind and making big bucks in the digital revolution. And now that things are better they come back.

Kind of a fair weather friend.

I don't understand this viewpoint. People castigate Kodak for not "doing the right thing", which means follow trends and staying profitable, yet the camera makers are castigated for following profits.

Should Rollei be applauded for driving the film plane into the dirt without diversifying? Should Leica be demonized for diversifying?

Where is the market for new film cameras? How many of you bought new Voigtsina cameras while they cancelled the automatic 35mm Bessa's, or for that matter new F6's?

The market is what it is. The big players will return when they can be profitable with new film camera designs.

We are more likely to see short-run camera designs like the Fuji/Voigtlander design made by Cosina than some long-running commitment to a return to film by the bigs.

The P&S market is lost to cell phones.

Regards,
Rob

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

[Roger Cole]

I guess it id not anger against new film cameras, rather than Canikon leaving film behind and making big bucks in the digital revolution. And now that things are better they come back.

Kind of a fair weather friend.


<Beamed through Tapatalk relay>

They aren't friends either true or fair weather; they are businesses and big ones. Expect them to maximize profit. If they are publicly traded companies (and I don't even know if they are or not) they even have a duty to stockholders to do so.

I don't expect them to be labors of love like Travelwide or even the new Ilford.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk and 100% recycled electrons - because I care.

 

[Henning Serger]

Henning,

Do you know where Fujifilm actually makes their film? I am curious to know where their factory is located and am fairly amazed that this information is not out there on the web. It appears to be a very well guarded secret!

AFAIK their film factory is located in the Tokyo region. There have been some pictures of it on the web.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Henning Serger]

Where is the market for new film cameras? How many of you bought new Voigtsina cameras while they cancelled the automatic 35mm Bessa's, or for that matter new F6's?

Well, at least I did . Even several times.
I've bought four brand new film cameras since 2007 in total.
Bought a brand new Nikon F6 with MB-40 vertical grip and MV-1 data reader in 2009. A dream machine, by far the best 35mm SLR I've ever worked with.
Just last week I've ordered another brand new F6 with MB-40 to supplement my first F6.
Because I often shoot colour and BW parallel on my photo projects. Therefore one F6 loaded with colour film, the other one loaded with BW film: For me the perfect combination.

Concerning the question whether Nikon / Canon will introduce new film cameras in the future: As I've written, at the time of Photokina last year they were in a discussion / thinking about phase. At that time no definite decisions had yet been made.
The situation for them is that the market for digital cameras is still significantly decreasing. This year CIPA expects the market for digital cameras (both compact and interchangeable lens cameras) to be less than 35 million units p.a.
By unit volume that is significantly less than the unit sales volume of film based cameras at the end of the nineties. If you consider value, the figures are bit different, value volume is still higher today because digital cameras are significantly more expensive than film cameras 16-17 years ago.

Because of the declining market for digital cameras it of course makes sense for the camera manufacturers to think about alternatives and profitable niche products.
And with film cameras, they have all the technology needed (investments are relative low).
Therefore it makes sense for them to at least think about it.
We will see.
I am very relaxed concerning this topic. It would not surprise me at all if we see new film cameras in the next 3-5 years on the market. Cameras from Cosina / Voigtländer, Leica, Nikon, Canon, Hasselblad.
Hasselblad already has made a change in their product policy: It is again possible to use film backs with their current models. Hasselblad said they just reacted on the demand from their customers. Lots of them want to use film as well.
Leica already had introduced one new film camera model last photokina, the M-A. AFAIK it is now the first time in their history, that they are offering three film M-models parallel.
I had a longer talk with the responsible Leica product manager of the M-system at the Photokina:
He said they see already a slight increasing demand for their film cameras. They expect this trend to continue. Therefore the new model.

If Nikon / Canon really bring back film cameras to the market, that would be really great.
Not only because some thousand new sold cameras.
But because of the very important signal to the photo market:
If the leaders of digital camera technology bring back film cameras, the message will be:
Film is cool again. It has its place today and in the future.
The whole market for film photography will benefit from that. Lots of photographers will then be encouraged either to go (partially) back to film, or to try film the first time.
The demand for used cameras will then also increase.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[rbultman]

Nice upbeat post Henning. I am hopeful too that more models will appear. When Rollei folded, I hoped that Cosina would be able to produce a TLR that would be more economical under the Rollei banner. Many knock Cosina but I like my R3M and think their glass is fantastic.

Regards,
Rob

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

[Xmas]

... their glass is fantastic.

Regards,
Rob

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

It is fantastic quite apart from providing different ergonomics in every focal length.

 

[cmacd123]

If Nikon / Canon really bring back film cameras to the market, that would be really great.
Not only because some thousand new sold cameras.
But because of the very important signal to the photo market:
If the leaders of digital camera technology bring back film cameras, the message will be:
Film is cool again. It has its place today and in the future.
The whole market for film photography will benefit from that. Lots of photographers will then be encouraged either to go (partially) back to film, or to try film the first time.
Henning

It would be nice, but I do wonder about the economics. I bought a local dealers LAST Canon Elan 7N body back a few years ago for about 300 Dollars Canadian. I expect that was probably a fair price at the time for what was their latest design FIlm camera.

I am currently waiting for the selling dealer to deliver this http://www.ebay.ca/itm/231652964654 unit, which I could not resist sticking a low bid on. That is the Elan 7 and not the 7N but for many uses they are equivalent. (the N version having a bit better auto focus and a light for the LCD screen)

Now as long as used cameras sell for 25 bucks, New ones are unlikely to leave the shelf for much more than 100.

 

[rbultman]

Volume wise we are probably back to the 1950's where a good production run was 10's of thousands of units. I guess that Cosina is already at these volumes on their Bessa's. If you have a small plant and the market is small. The economics work out.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

[Henning Serger]

It would be nice, but I do wonder about the economics.

Well Charles, the information at the Photokina was that both Nikon and Canon are thinking about high quality cameras for advanced photographers / enthusiasts in the 1000€ - 2000€ price range.
Which cameras could that be (my personal thoughts)?
Examples for Nikon:

1. A successor for the Nikon FM3A. The prices on the used camera market are still quite high because of high demand. With some improvements such a camera could be attractive.
2. A F6X. The F6 is an almost perfect camera. Prices on the used camera market are high. There is extremely little which could be improved. So you can just continue production of it, and / or update it to a F6X.
Which additional features could a F6X have?
Full compatibility with the new E lenses for example.
Full compatibility with the new PC lenses.
An improved solution for data recording like the Meta 35 system.

Just some ideas from a Nikon user.......

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Henning Serger]

Sorry, just forgotten:
The latest serial numbers reported from the F6 have been in 36,000 range.
So in the time period when the main digital marketing strategy has been "film is dead, you must switch to digital because soon you cannot buy film anymore" nevertheless such a number of a higher priced film camera have been sold.
If that was possible, it may probably be possible to sell a bit more cameras in an era of a film revival......

Look at the markets of mechanical watches and turntables. Lots of new, high(est) quality products after the revival has started.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[RattyMouse]

Henning,

Do you know where Fujifilm actually makes their film? I am curious to know where their factory is located and am fairly amazed that this information is not out there on the web. It appears to be a very well guarded secret!

PING!

 

[Xmas]

Well Charles, the information at the Photokina was that both Nikon and Canon are thinking about high quality cameras for advanced photographers / enthusiasts in the 1000€ - 2000€ price range.
Which cameras could that be (my personal thoughts)?
Examples for Nikon:

1. A successor for the Nikon FM3A. The prices on the used camera market are still quite high because of high demand. With some improvements such a camera could be attractive.
2. A F6X. The F6 is an almost perfect camera. Prices on the used camera market are high. There is extremely little which could be improved. So you can just continue production of it, and / or update it to a F6X.
Which additional features could a F6X have?
Full compatibility with the new E lenses for example.
Full compatibility with the new PC lenses.
An improved solution for data recording like the Meta 35 system.

Just some ideas from a Nikon user.......

Best regards,
Henning

A run of any of F6 or FM2 or 3 bodies might be commercially viable even without lenses given legacy lenses and Cosinas current offerings, ie viable = profit.

https://www.cameraquest.com/Voigt_SL2.htm

Cosina can easily do small batches of Bessas and Nikon 'badged' SLRs.

Would that make any significant difference to camera availability from estate sales or Fuji and Kodak film sales or their long term plans?

Cosina's bessa bodies and rangefinder lenses did make significant differences to canon LTM body prices.

Lomo had two brick shops in London open on Sundays until July '14 then they closed one. That will have increased profits on reduced sales of cameras, processing and films. I always had to queue to buy film.

Our major Pharmacy chain Boots now does Ilford 120 as well as 135 on Sundays meaning Kodaks loss on the rebadged lomo film sales is Ilford's gain, I got a Boots loyalty card so I gain as well.

Boots used to sell BW400CN as their only Kodak mono, Kodak fixed that themselves.

Three weeks ago a group of us on a street shoot were stopped by lady waving a broken Canonet /2.5 we explained the film carton had an exposure look up table as the meter was kaput. She had sourced the camera with instruction book from a trash can! You don't need an F6 to take photos. Her grand father had been a real photographer.

 

[Henning Serger]

PING!

???
I've answered your question. See the previous page in this thread.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[RattyMouse]

???
I've answered your question. See the previous page in this thread.

Best regards,
Henning

Sorry I missed your reply. I see that you dont have the exact location. If you ever talk to someone at Fujifilm, this would be interesting information to learn. They must have a large plant somewhere.

Thank you.