Interesting news from Fujifilm

[Ricardo Miranda]

It's going to take some co-operation among manufactures to all work together and support each-other and their own markets and the markets of other manufactures. If film can be looked at like a recipe, and coater like bakeries, they can all bake and make anyone's recipe when needed, and help to make sure nobody in the world goes without bread, I mean film.

There's a problem with your thinking.
Film isn't bread.

Even Kodak when they had 2 or 3 factories around the world making the same product, that product wasn't exactly the same.
TriX made at Rochester wasn't the same as the one made in Harrow.
You can't just pick up a "recipe" and use different coaters in different places, even if these coaters were identical.
Environmental differences play a big part here.

FYI, Harman does coat for most part of the year, only shutting down a few weeks every year for annual maintenance.

 

[Ricardo Miranda]

Now, back on topic:

I think that Henning for most part is a realistic man, but with a very big dose of optimist in the mix.
Not every thing is "doom and gloom", even if Kodak and Fuji were to shut-down entirely.

The problem for most part is summarised to "if you don't use it, you'll lose it".

How many times in this forum has someone said "I don't use colour films", or "I don't use E6", or "if I want to use colour, I use my DSLR"???
Far too many times.

It is in your hands and of those of the next generation to make film a "mainstay" technology.
But, the reality is that most of adults (over 18) sees film as curious thing of the past.

Every week I go to a market or 2 or even 3 where there are 2nd hand traders selling cameras and film.
How many times I see tourists or locals passing by looking at the cameras displayed just with a "nostalgia" look for those aged over 40 or just a "curiosity of the past"?
Far too many times.

The normal man in the street doesn't see new cameras or new films being advertised. They don't see film at all, apart some students from time to time or the odd "old man with an historical camera".

That is the reality.

Even those here and in other fora only use film, as has been demonstrated in some pools, as a "weekend feature".
That has to change.
If you have any digital device, be it a m4/3 or that Leica M9 or something like that, throw it away. Force yourself to use only film. Tell others to do the same. Ban digi-devices from your house.
Is it hard?
Then don't come complain when Kodak or Fuji drop another film or 2.

If you don't use it enough, you'll loose it.

 

[Ricardo Miranda]

I'm confused why they stopped 400 but continue with 100 mono.

Noel,
I'll venture to say that has to do with lower sales, but also the fact that Neoppan 400 is "old cubic grain" and 100 Acros is a new CCG technology.

 

[xo-whiplock]

The new generation are using their smart phones to take snaps. The ones that want to do "photography" are looking to film, not DSLRs or 4/3rd cameras, or mirrorless cameras. They have what they want in a digital camera with their phones. The "look" of instant film, color, and B&W films is considered "photography." It's the generation that hit tweens and are now in their mid-twenties that don't get what's going on in the world with film. Those older like me, look back and see a lost generation to film that has been rediscovered by the newest tweens and younger.

Kodak Alaris and Lomography just teamed up to market to these tweens, and the rest of the demographic that make up the 1 Million plus Lomographers around the world, and growing. Old timers see the end to the digital fascination and miss the feel and look of film and are hanging up their DSLR for play time and getting out the old film camera and working towards darkroom work again. People are buying film, a lot of people, and even though Fuji reports numbers that are discouraging for Fuji, it's not representative of what's going on in the world with regard to film photography. It simply shows that Fuji is not popular with film shooters like they should be.

1. They are priced too high. 2. They discontinue films according to a planned phase out time schedule. 3. They claim they raise prices because of lack of sales. They price increase to discourage sales. They price increase when according to them, demand is low. This is reverse of how product pricing works in business. Demand goes up, prices go up. Demand goes down, prices go down.

Discontinuing products without increasing advertising and lower prices, indicates a phase out in progress, irregardless of what the market indicators are reporting. Basically, Fuji is lying to us all. Sure the number look bad for film from Fuji, and it's because they made them look bad by discouraging sale, not looking to increase sales, and increasing prices to discourage sales.

In no way should Fuji be looked at as an indicator of what is happening in the film world or with film photography in general. Look to Kodak Alaris and Lomography, Film Ferriania, ILLFORD, ORWO, FOMA, Tasma, Svema, and all the other people making film that want to make film and supply the film photography world with film.

Forget Fuji, as far as non-instant film goes. The Instax sales are a fluke to them and runs contrary to their intent to drop all film interests. It's my guess they will sell Instax to someone wanting to be in film production.

 

[pdeeh]

xo-whiplock: just a suggestion, but writing in great blocks of text without paragraph breaks makes it very difficult to read and easily digest your points.

PS Edit noted and much appreciated

 

[Roger Cole]

Nonsense. I'm not about to throw away my digital devices and, in fact, am considering getting a DSLR.

Shooting some images digitally does not make me shoot less film, it just makes me shoot photos where I would not had I only used film - like when I only have my phone, or in light too low for film.

OTOH I'm also going to upgrade to a better 4x5 in the coming year, toying with the idea of also getting an RZ67, and of eventually experimenting with wet plate.

 

[Xmas]

Noel,
I'll venture to say that has to do with lower sales, but also the fact that Neoppan 400 is "old cubic grain" and 100 Acros is a new CCG technology.

That is a parochial view.
Fuji make and finish film.
Their resellers haggle over a price.
If Fuji can't sell it they stop making it.
The resellers don't care about the technology or ISO.

I was only using the 400, it was nicer than HP5+ and Tx...

Either Fuji wanted too much or the resellers had fingers burnt trying to sell last batch...

They were rebadging it as legacy pro 30.5m

Em no 275-003
Before 2011-8

On my can

At same time as selling it in 120 & 135 Fuji neopan

So like APX100 had long death throes.

 

[Xmas]

Nonsense. I'm not about to throw away my digital devices and...

I throw mine away all the time and need to pick them up to continue web browsing.

 

[Xmas]

... Basically, Fuji is lying to us all ... It's my guess they will sell Instax to someone wanting to be in film production.

Agreed with these two

Marketing is about selling a product.
They are probably haggling as we speak.

The fixed costs of coating and finishing are fixed they make fewer sales they charge more, both Fuji and their resellers have to eat.

 

[xo-whiplock]

Nonsense. I'm not about to throw away my digital devices and, in fact, am considering getting a DSLR.

Shooting some images digitally does not make me shoot less film, it just makes me shoot photos where I would not had I only used film - like when I only have my phone, or in light too low for film.

OTOH I'm also going to upgrade to a better 4x5 in the coming year, toying with the idea of also getting an RZ67, and of eventually experimenting with wet plate.

Who suggested throwing away your digital devices? I'm typing on one right now, and don't intend on throwing it away either.

You should re-consider the DSLR purchase. Unless you have lenses that you have to use for it, you are well advised to look to the mirrorless models. The mirror has been made obsolete for digicams. Smaller better are the 4/3rds cameras.

I hear a lot of people say digital is better for low light... I guess this is for the switchable ISO and antishake with long shutter speeds. These are camera features that compensate the photographer and assist the photographer to not underexpose and the need for a steady camera. True there are no high ISO films, but a 400 film can be used with a fast lens, and if you pre-flash the film so it sets the film just before the silver reacts to light. There's info on how to do this pre-flashing of film, and if you then do say -4 of 400 ISO, you'd have 6400 ISO film shots that you would push process 4 stops, or simply semi-stand process for an hour. But honestly, film and flash is the way to go so there's no "low light" shooting. Besides, who wants shots with no light in them, I mean "low light." Even digital cameras tell you to use a flash instead of long exposures and high ISOs.

Cool you support digital and go on to promote large format film plate shooting...

 

[xo-whiplock]

...

The fixed costs of coating and finishing are fixed they make fewer sales they charge more, both Fuji and their resellers have to eat.

Wow, imagine if everything was marketed and sold that way?

 

[Xmas]

Wow, imagine if everything was marketed and sold that way?

When was the last time you found a shop keeper dead behind the counter from hunger? Leica increments the price every year admittedly some times to also allow for currency relative movement.

You only get end of line models cheaper...

Like legacy pro 400...

 

[Ricardo Miranda]

Nonsense. I'm not about to throw away my digital devices and, in fact, am considering getting a DSLR.

Roger darling,

Is your DSLR "Made in USA"? Or maybe "Made in EU"? No?
It is basic ABC economics, but if you buy products made in a foreign country, you are sending precious $$$ abroad.
If you spend your $$ in film or cameras "Made in USA", you'll be helping your country, won't you?

Can you see my point, now?

The problem is there are billions of $$$, £££ and that other currency being transferred from the Western World to the new economic powers in the East.
In other words, they're getting to be 1st class countries and we're sinking to 3rd class.
And while at that, film companies are sinking as well.
And not to mention the labs closing and people loosing jobs just because "it is more convenient to use a DSLR" or you just want to "show off you are rich".
It is just the old saying: Humans are indeed stupid.

And if you don't accept that, then you are an idiot.

To recognise your mistakes and correct them, then you are smart.

 

[Ricardo Miranda]

Who suggested throwing away your digital devices? I'm typing on one right now, and don't intend on throwing it away either.

You should re-consider the DSLR purchase. Unless you have lenses that you have to use for it, you are well advised to look to the mirrorless models. The mirror has been made obsolete for digicams. Smaller better are the 4/3rds cameras.

I hear a lot of people say digital is better for low light... I guess this is for the switchable ISO and antishake with long shutter speeds. These are camera features that compensate the photographer and assist the photographer to not underexpose and the need for a steady camera. True there are no high ISO films, but a 400 film can be used with a fast lens, and if you pre-flash the film so it sets the film just before the silver reacts to light. There's info on how to do this pre-flashing of film, and if you then do say -4 of 400 ISO, you'd have 6400 ISO film shots that you would push process 4 stops, or simply semi-stand process for an hour. But honestly, film and flash is the way to go so there's no "low light" shooting. Besides, who wants shots with no light in them, I mean "low light." Even digital cameras tell you to use a flash instead of long exposures and high ISOs.

Cool you support digital and go on to promote large format film plate shooting...

Oh dear!

 

[RattyMouse]

The new generation are using their smart phones to take snaps. The ones that want to do "photography" are looking to film, not DSLRs or 4/3rd cameras, or mirrorless cameras. They have what they want in a digital camera with their phones. The "look" of instant film, color, and B&W films is considered "photography." It's the generation that hit tweens and are now in their mid-twenties that don't get what's going on in the world with film. Those older like me, look back and see a lost generation to film that has been rediscovered by the newest tweens and younger.

Kodak Alaris and Lomography just teamed up to market to these tweens, and the rest of the demographic that make up the 1 Million plus Lomographers around the world, and growing. Old timers see the end to the digital fascination and miss the feel and look of film and are hanging up their DSLR for play time and getting out the old film camera and working towards darkroom work again. People are buying film, a lot of people, and even though Fuji reports numbers that are discouraging for Fuji, it's not representative of what's going on in the world with regard to film photography. It simply shows that Fuji is not popular with film shooters like they should be.

1. They are priced too high. 2. They discontinue films according to a planned phase out time schedule. 3. They claim they raise prices because of lack of sales. They price increase to discourage sales. They price increase when according to them, demand is low. This is reverse of how product pricing works in business. Demand goes up, prices go up. Demand goes down, prices go down.

Discontinuing products without increasing advertising and lower prices, indicates a phase out in progress, irregardless of what the market indicators are reporting. Basically, Fuji is lying to us all. Sure the number look bad for film from Fuji, and it's because they made them look bad by discouraging sale, not looking to increase sales, and increasing prices to discourage sales.

In no way should Fuji be looked at as an indicator of what is happening in the film world or with film photography in general. Look to Kodak Alaris and Lomography, Film Ferriania, ILLFORD, ORWO, FOMA, Tasma, Svema, and all the other people making film that want to make film and supply the film photography world with film.

Forget Fuji, as far as non-instant film goes. The Instax sales are a fluke to them and runs contrary to their intent to drop all film interests. It's my guess they will sell Instax to someone wanting to be in film production.

Fujifilm makes more money from INSTAX cameras and film than from ALL of their digital camera sales. By far the greatest success for their Imaging Solutions division is INSTAX film. Last year 4.2 million cameras were sold. Over 4 million. One year. Read their corporate reports and see how INSTAX gets top billing for revenue and income.

Calling INSTAX a fluke shows how you simply have no understanding of this product and how popular it is.

Kodak Alaris, meanwhile, does absolutely ZERO substantial marketing of any film product at all.

Eastman Kodak has already stated how their film business is 100% at risk if Hollywood does not continue to shoot movies on film. We clearly saw that with the recent contract that extended film's life by all of TWO years. Did Kodak say that they would downsize if they didnt get the studio contracts? No. They did not say that. Instead they stated that their film production was going to be shut down.

What did Kodak try to do? Sell the film plant to the studios! That's right, Kodak wanted to 100% exit the film industry period.

Our esteemed APUG member Photo Engineer has stated that Kodak is so oversized that they could coat the entire world's consumption of film in a SINGLE day (minus product change over time).

That shows us how oversized Kodak is in today's film market. A pretty sad state of affairs. Just last month Kodak reported a 25% drop in revenue from their film operations. They continue to sink. The bleeding has not yet stopped.

Ilford and hopefully Ferrania are the future of film. Not Fuji and certainly not Kodak.

 

[RattyMouse]

Who suggested throwing away your digital devices? I'm typing on one right now, and don't intend on throwing it away either.

You should re-consider the DSLR purchase. Unless you have lenses that you have to use for it, you are well advised to look to the mirrorless models. The mirror has been made obsolete for digicams. Smaller better are the 4/3rds cameras.

 

[Xmas]

Fujifilm makes more money from INSTAX cameras and film than from ALL of their digital camera sales. By far the greatest success for their Imaging Solutions division is INSTAX film. Last year 4.2 million cameras were sold. Over 4 million. One year. Read their corporate reports and see how INSTAX gets top billing for revenue and income.

Calling INSTAX a fluke shows how you simply have no understanding of this product and how popular it is.

Kodak Alaris, meanwhile, does absolutely ZERO substantial marketing of any film product at all.

Eastman Kodak has already stated how their film business is 100% at risk if Hollywood does not continue to shoot movies on film. We clearly saw that with the recent contract that extended film's life by all of TWO years. Did Kodak say that they would downsize if they didnt get the studio contracts? No. They did not say that. Instead they stated that their film production was going to be shut down.

What did Kodak try to do? Sell the film plant to the studios! That's right, Kodak wanted to 100% exit the film industry period.

Our esteemed APUG member Photo Engineer has stated that Kodak is so oversized that they could coat the entire world's consumption of film in a SINGLE day (minus product change over time).

That shows us how oversized Kodak is in today's film market. A pretty sad state of affairs. Just last month Kodak reported a 25% drop in revenue from their film operations. They continue to sink. The bleeding has not yet stopped.

Ilford and hopefully Ferrania are the future of film. Not Fuji and certainly not Kodak.

Harman ie Ilford
Foma
Orwo
Are all coating film as well as
Eastman Kodak &
Fuji
Inviscoat too?

Ferrani just getting steam up...
Maybe Ch too

So not too too bad.

 

[Ricardo Miranda]

In no way should Fuji be looked at as an indicator of what is happening in the film world or with film photography in general. Look to Kodak Alaris and Lomography, Film Ferriania, ILLFORD, ORWO, FOMA, Tasma, Svema, and all the other people making film that want to make film and supply the film photography world with film.

Hi
Just to let you know that Svema is no longer with us for the last 15 years. And Tasma doesn't offer their products to the public, directly or indirectly.
What you see advertised today as Svema (FPP?) is actually re-branded film.

 

[Ricardo Miranda]

Harman ie Ilford
Foma
Orwo
Are all coating film as well as
Eastman Kodak &
Fuji
Inviscoat too?

Ferrani just getting steam up...
Maybe Ch too

So not too too bad.

Inoviscoat publicly acknowledge they do coatings for the Impossible Project. Privately they do coatings for ADOX and others.

 

[xo-whiplock]

== Making film ==
* [[ADOX]] - Made in Germany
* [[Agfa-Gevaert]] - Made in Belgium
* ERA - Made in China<ref>[http://www.chinastera.com/English/ERA_product.htm ERA]</ref>
* Film Washi - Made in France<ref>{{cite web|url=http://lomig.fr/|title=Film Washi|author=Lomig|work=lomig.fr|accessdate=6 August 2015}}</ref>
* FILM Ferrania - Made in Italy<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.filmferrania.it/|title=FILM Ferrania|work=FILM Ferrania|accessdate=6 August 2015}}</ref>
* Foma - Made in Czech Republic<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.foma.cz/en/photomaterials|title=Black & White Photo Materials, Films, Chemicals, Competitor´s Equivalents|author=CS Technologies s.r.o.|work=foma.cz|accessdate=6 August 2015}}</ref>
* [[Fujifilm]] - Made in Japan
* [[Ilford Photo|Ilford]] - Made in England
* [[Impossible Project]] - Made in The Netherlands
* InovisCoat - Made in Germany (Coating only)<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.inoviscoat.de/|title=InovisCoat - Lohnbeschichtung - Mehrfachbeschichtung » Lohnbeschichtung, Beschichtung, Mehrfachbeschichtung|work=Lohnbeschichtung, Beschichtung, Mehrfachbeschichtung|accessdate=6 August 2015}}</ref>
* Kentmere - Made in United Kingdom<ref>[http://www.kentmere.co.uk/ Kentmere]</ref>
* Kodak Alaris - Made in United States of America<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.kodakalaris.com/ek/US/en/Kodak_Alaris.htm|title=Kodak Alaris|work=kodakalaris.com|accessdate=6 August 2015}}</ref>
* Lucky Film - Made in China<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.luckyfilm.com/|title=首页_中国乐凯集团有限公司..|work=luckyfilm.com|accessdate=6 August 2015}}</ref>
* New55 - Made in United States of America<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.new55.net/|title=New55 FILM|work=new55.net|accessdate=6 August 2015}}</ref>
* [[ORWO]] - Made in Germany
* Shanghai - Made in China<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.smpicgg.com/en/products.php?class_id=166|title=Black and white film, film-At ShenBei (group) Co., Ltd., Shanghai factory|work=smpicgg.com|accessdate=6 August 2015}}</ref>
* Svema - Made in Ukraine<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.astrum-ltd.com/en.html|title=Buy a photochemistry: developing solutions, fixing solutions – sale, description, composition - Astrum LTD - Àñòðóì|work=astrum-ltd.com|accessdate=6 August 2015}}</ref>
* Tasma - Made in Ukraine<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.astrum-ltd.com/en.html|title=Buy a photochemistry: developing solutions, fixing solutions – sale, description, composition - Astrum LTD - Àñòðóì|work=astrum-ltd.com|accessdate=6 August 2015}}</ref>

(Additional "coating only" shops need added)

== Re-branded ==
* [[AgfaPhoto]] - Sells products made by Fuji and Harmon Technologies Ltd. under the AgfaPhoto brand.
* Arista - In-house brand for Freestyle Photo Online.<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.freestylephoto.biz/|title=Home - Freestyle Photographic Supplies|author=Freestyle Photographic Supplies|work=freestylephoto.biz|accessdate=6 August 2015}}</ref>
* CineStill Film - Cine film from Kodak made for use in still photography and C-41 processing.<ref>{{cite web|url=http://cinestillfilm.com/|title=CineStill Film|work=CineStill Film|accessdate=6 August 2015}}</ref>
* Rollei film - Sells products made by Agfa-Gevaert and others under the Rollei brand.<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.rolleifilm.com/main.php?p=a|title=Rollei USA|work=rolleifilm.com|accessdate=6 August 2015}}</ref>
* [[Lomography]] - An ecosystem designed to meet the needs of analogue film photographers worldwide.<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.lomography.com/|title=Lomography|work=lomography.com|accessdate=6 August 2015}}</ref>
* [[Maco_(film_company)|Maco]] - Distributor of film products.<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.macodirect.de/|title=Macodirect.de|author=Hans O. Mahn GmbH & CO KG|work=macodirect.de|accessdate=6 August 2015}}</ref>
* Ultrafine - In-house brand for the Photo Warehouse.<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.ultrafineonline.com/|title=UltraFineOnLine Photo Warehouse|work=ultrafineonline.com|accessdate=6 August 2015}}</ref>

(partial list of re-branded)

 

[cmacd123]

What about Super-8 ?

(And I would not use the term "direct reversal E-6".)

Well, If you want to go back the first colour reversal movie film was 16mm and later regular 8 Kodachrome. Around the time of super 8 their was a couple of different versions of ektachrome movie film, which took movie specific processes, ending with ME-4 which Was a variant of E-4 with slightly different timing and chemistry. (can't remember if it had remjet or not)

Video news film or VNF was created for the TV new market, to supplement the TV guys who were previously using B&W reversal, or often B&W negative with the image polarity reversed at time of projection (on TV) For a while it was the only ektachrome style movie stock. I saw a vauge reference that Fuji even had a compatible film sold in some markets.

Thus my comment that E-6 Movie film is fairly modern.

will take your terminology reference with a smile, I believe I was following along from a previous post. Yes I was referring to E-6 Reversal, not an exotic film that yields a positive image from a negative developer which is what is implied by "Direct Reversal"

 

[AgX]

xo-whiplock,


You are wrong on the ex-soviet and indian manufacturers.
And Rollei Film and Maco are the same.

 

[xo-whiplock]

xo-whiplock,


You are wrong on the ex-soviet and indian manufacturers.
And Rollei Film and Maco are the same.

AStrum Ltd list of films:
http://www.astrum-ltd.com/ru/kino-foto-materialy.html
(AStrum says all made in Ukraine, "Tasma" most likely sold by them as well, don't know if Aerial or recipes they use and make.)
All materials produced in Ukraine.
B\W Film:
FN-64 (35mm,36exp.perforated) - 2,50 USD,
FN-64 (35mm, perf.) - 1,311 USD per metr
Foto-100(35mm,36exp.perforated) - 2,50 USD
Foto-100 (35mm, perf.) - 1,311 USD per metr
Foto-200(35mm,36exp.perforated) - 2,84 USD,
Foto-200 (35mm, perf.) - 2,47 USD per metr.
Foto-400(35mm,36exp.perforated) - 3,24 USD.
Foto-400 (35mm, perf.) - 2,81 USD per metr
MZ-3 (35mm, perf.) - 1,20 USD per metr.
120 Rol Film (61,5mm) - 3,28 USD per metr
Micrat-N (Blue sensitive, 35mm, perf.) - 1,4 USD per m.
Micrat-orto (35mm, perf.) - 1,05 USD per metr.
NK - 2 (35mm, perf.) - 1,31 USD per metr.
A-2SH (35mm, perf.) - 2,80 USD per metr.
Color Film:
Color Negative Film (35mm,36exp.perforated) - 3,24 USD.
Color Negative Film (35mm, perf.) - 2,81 USD per metr.
Color Negative Film 120 (61,5mm) - 4,94 USD per metr.

Also removed Hindustan Photo from list.

Rollei and Maco being the same, perhaps, but really in US Rollei is what we see, and maco seems to be directing/sourcing Rollei, which looks to be their marketing arm. So, really it's Rollei that everyone sees.

 

[Ektagraphic]

Interesting thread. I am glad that Instax has been so successful for Fuji. I wish that the Fuji packfilms were in such high demand too! It would be a dream for them to start making a new packfilm camera!

It still manages to amaze me that Fuji discontinued their cine products, and still are able to keep their film coating operation running- as far as I have understood, Instax film does not have a negative, so that would not play a part in keeping the coater running(?)

 

[Xmas]

Interesting thread. I am glad that Instax has been so successful for Fuji. I wish that the Fuji packfilms were in such high demand too! It would be a dream for them to start making a new packfilm camera!

It still manages to amaze me that Fuji discontinued their cine products, and still are able to keep their film coating operation running- as far as I have understood, Instax film does not have a negative, so that would not play a part in keeping the coater running(?)

Fuji may have had several coating machines if the cine coater needed major repair it might have been cheaper to scrap... And continue stills with a lower volume machine. In 2004 or there abouts Kodak rationalised their coasters to one monster coater for cine which could do stills as well, painting oneself into a corner...
Instax may need a coater and be done on same machine as film.
It is not just the machine like a robot mini lab there is lots of skilled staff needed.
The Ja tend to have very skilled staff.

I'd note that Ilford stopped cine in 2004 or so and show no signs of stress.

There is still a risk that Fuji might sell the factory to third party as happened to Agfa's film factory and stopped the APX series of films, big companies get hubris...