Mr Horowy, it's been a while. Nice to see you here. We should pull Craig Koshyk in on this to do some testing as well since he (literally) wrote the book on using baryta with hand-applied emulsions.
Interest in Co-op for Unsensitized Baryta Paper From Bergger
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If the paper will work and the test will be good for pt/pl
I would committ the paper
Best
Stefano Germi
Italy
I would committ the paper
Best
Stefano Germi
Italy
OP
OP
I sent him a PM letting him know about this thread.Kerik said:
-MIke
Annie has been bleaching silver paper, and I know it works well, but is a bit of a hassle.
I seem to recall that Annie tried to get some info out of Bergger last year about this same paper, and they shut her down. I wonder why this year is a different result?
I can say that I have seen some excellent prints made on the BACK of regular silver paper (and even some on the back of old dye transfer paper). Some papers work well, others do not.
I have a friend who uses the Koshyk process a good bit, so I intended to have him try some as well, as he has done more prints that way than I have. It would be good to have Craig involved, for sure.
---Michael
I seem to recall that Annie tried to get some info out of Bergger last year about this same paper, and they shut her down. I wonder why this year is a different result?
I can say that I have seen some excellent prints made on the BACK of regular silver paper (and even some on the back of old dye transfer paper). Some papers work well, others do not.
I have a friend who uses the Koshyk process a good bit, so I intended to have him try some as well, as he has done more prints that way than I have. It would be good to have Craig involved, for sure.
---Michael
Just some technical detals for those of you not aware of what Baryta is or even what paper is.
Paper can be rag or pulp. It can be hot or cold pressed. It can contain oxidants or reductants which include chlorine or halides and peroxides. It can contain acids or bases and it can contain clays or aluminas and other interesting chemcials which can interact with photochemicals of all types. Some papers contain spreading agents (things that attract overcoats) and other papers have repellant properties (they repel water coatings). Some papers are not even tested for this and therefore vary (as we see it trying to coat on it) from batch to batch unpredictably.
Paper has a 'good' side and a 'bad' side. The good side is smoother than the bad side. The good side can be unsized which means that it is bare paper. This is often hard to coat on. The bad side is rarely sized. The good side is sometimes hard to detect except in strong light.
Sizing can be either gelatin or gum arabic. If gelatin it may be hardened or unhardened. Gum arabic does not harden in the classic sense, but acts more like a resin or glue. Some sizes can be akin to a gesso or acrylic. These are used by some specialty printers for their prints. The aim for a size coat is about 100 mg/dm squared.
Baryta paper is plain paper with barium sulfate in gelatin and glycerine (formulas available if interested). The baryta layer is most often hardened. The baryta acts as a whitening layer and a barrier to prevent undue migration of photochemicals into the paper and paper chemicals from getting into the photosensitve layers. The baryta layer also improves speed due to reflectivity and sharpness due to less chemical migration. It also helps prevent undue yellowing.
The aim for a baryta layer can be as high as 1000 mg/dm sq. This will also contain as much as 1000 mg/dm sq of gelatin binder plus other chemicals. Most rich papers go this high, but most modern papers use far less than this. Tints are often added to baryta papers to 'tone' the photo image.
If you compare todays papers with some old papers, you can see and feel the thickness of the baryta and paper. Modern papers are generally a lot thinner and have less Baryta than older papers, and this gradual thinning is also true of RC papers.
RC papers always have a size coat, as it is impossible to coat on RC unless the size is present. RC paper uses Titanox (Titanium Dioxide) instead of Baryta (Bariums Sulfate). RC paper may use either Rutile or Anatase Titanox, which defines its UV absorption. RC paper may also be tinted. Coating on RC is like coating on film support as all of the chemistry stays in the photosensitive layer or at best some moves into the size layer.
Ink Jet or other digital papers can be similar to the above, but they contain additional mordants (quaternary ammonium salts in the most primitive papers) or other ingredients such as ceramics, to cause immobilization of inks and rapid drying. These chemcials are almost always inimical to photographic processes in some way or another due to their very nature. I have found that each paper must be tested on an individual basis before establishing a use for it in conventional photography.
Bergger COT320 is supposedly a gelatin sized cotton fibre paper. It is one of the best I have ever coated on, but it has no baryta (Some packages state that it contains baryta, but it does not. The label is incorrect.). I guess that the size is hardened, as it acts that way. I have had variations between the 3 samples I have used. Two matched and one was more repellant, indicating some small change in the paper or size. It can be adjusted for with changes to the photo chemical formulation.
It is very important to test a batch before commiting to a large purchase. You may not get exactly what you expect otherwise. You cannot test one batch and accept delivery on another batch expecting exactly the same results. It may not happen.
Even with one batch, storage and age enter into the results as paper changes in moisture content and the size layer hardens and etc. So, beware that changes do happen. As paper ages, it generally becomes harder to coat on as it dries down and hardens.
This may be what I observe in my samples of COT320.
In any event, there are a lot of people out there working on getting good Baryta and RC papers for making high end photographic coatings. As their efforts bear fruit, you will see these become available at suppliers of this type of material. I am aware of several such efforts at the present time.
PE
Paper can be rag or pulp. It can be hot or cold pressed. It can contain oxidants or reductants which include chlorine or halides and peroxides. It can contain acids or bases and it can contain clays or aluminas and other interesting chemcials which can interact with photochemicals of all types. Some papers contain spreading agents (things that attract overcoats) and other papers have repellant properties (they repel water coatings). Some papers are not even tested for this and therefore vary (as we see it trying to coat on it) from batch to batch unpredictably.
Paper has a 'good' side and a 'bad' side. The good side is smoother than the bad side. The good side can be unsized which means that it is bare paper. This is often hard to coat on. The bad side is rarely sized. The good side is sometimes hard to detect except in strong light.
Sizing can be either gelatin or gum arabic. If gelatin it may be hardened or unhardened. Gum arabic does not harden in the classic sense, but acts more like a resin or glue. Some sizes can be akin to a gesso or acrylic. These are used by some specialty printers for their prints. The aim for a size coat is about 100 mg/dm squared.
Baryta paper is plain paper with barium sulfate in gelatin and glycerine (formulas available if interested). The baryta layer is most often hardened. The baryta acts as a whitening layer and a barrier to prevent undue migration of photochemicals into the paper and paper chemicals from getting into the photosensitve layers. The baryta layer also improves speed due to reflectivity and sharpness due to less chemical migration. It also helps prevent undue yellowing.
The aim for a baryta layer can be as high as 1000 mg/dm sq. This will also contain as much as 1000 mg/dm sq of gelatin binder plus other chemicals. Most rich papers go this high, but most modern papers use far less than this. Tints are often added to baryta papers to 'tone' the photo image.
If you compare todays papers with some old papers, you can see and feel the thickness of the baryta and paper. Modern papers are generally a lot thinner and have less Baryta than older papers, and this gradual thinning is also true of RC papers.
RC papers always have a size coat, as it is impossible to coat on RC unless the size is present. RC paper uses Titanox (Titanium Dioxide) instead of Baryta (Bariums Sulfate). RC paper may use either Rutile or Anatase Titanox, which defines its UV absorption. RC paper may also be tinted. Coating on RC is like coating on film support as all of the chemistry stays in the photosensitive layer or at best some moves into the size layer.
Ink Jet or other digital papers can be similar to the above, but they contain additional mordants (quaternary ammonium salts in the most primitive papers) or other ingredients such as ceramics, to cause immobilization of inks and rapid drying. These chemcials are almost always inimical to photographic processes in some way or another due to their very nature. I have found that each paper must be tested on an individual basis before establishing a use for it in conventional photography.
Bergger COT320 is supposedly a gelatin sized cotton fibre paper. It is one of the best I have ever coated on, but it has no baryta (Some packages state that it contains baryta, but it does not. The label is incorrect.). I guess that the size is hardened, as it acts that way. I have had variations between the 3 samples I have used. Two matched and one was more repellant, indicating some small change in the paper or size. It can be adjusted for with changes to the photo chemical formulation.
It is very important to test a batch before commiting to a large purchase. You may not get exactly what you expect otherwise. You cannot test one batch and accept delivery on another batch expecting exactly the same results. It may not happen.
Even with one batch, storage and age enter into the results as paper changes in moisture content and the size layer hardens and etc. So, beware that changes do happen. As paper ages, it generally becomes harder to coat on as it dries down and hardens.
This may be what I observe in my samples of COT320.
In any event, there are a lot of people out there working on getting good Baryta and RC papers for making high end photographic coatings. As their efforts bear fruit, you will see these become available at suppliers of this type of material. I am aware of several such efforts at the present time.
PE
Doesn't gelatin interfere with platinum printing? I just wanted to point that out as it seems as though the people wanting to do silver emulsions have different needs than other alternative processes.
I heard it rumoured recently that Bergger COT320 is actually just Arches Platine re-labeled (Ala Cranes Platinotype being just Cranes Cover)
michael, kerik, PE, et al, know this to be true?
michael, kerik, PE, et al, know this to be true?
Gelatin can cause difficulty with pt/pd printing, but I don't believe is insurmountible by any means. I have noticed that it primarily seems to cause uneven absorption of the solutions, and it shortens the toe on the curve considerably, making it look more like a traditional silver paper in that respect.
COT320 is not Platine. I think this rumor started when Bergger shipped a special sized (fulll sheet, 22x30) paper batch of COT 320 to the US the first time. They had not made the paper in that size before, and made the mistake of 'substituting' Platine for the orignal batch. Once that error was discovered, the paper was pulled, and Bergger brought in a correct batch.
The papers are very similar, and I also believe are both made by Arches, but COT320 does respond to pt/pd in a slightly different, and more consistant, manner. Platine is known for having batch inconsistancy problems that I have not yet seen in any of my COT320 orders.
---Michael
COT320 is not Platine. I think this rumor started when Bergger shipped a special sized (fulll sheet, 22x30) paper batch of COT 320 to the US the first time. They had not made the paper in that size before, and made the mistake of 'substituting' Platine for the orignal batch. Once that error was discovered, the paper was pulled, and Bergger brought in a correct batch.
The papers are very similar, and I also believe are both made by Arches, but COT320 does respond to pt/pd in a slightly different, and more consistant, manner. Platine is known for having batch inconsistancy problems that I have not yet seen in any of my COT320 orders.
---Michael
- Joined
- Mar 29, 2003
- Messages
- 273
Michael....
In my effort to obtain the Bergger paper I was dealing directly with Europe... perhaps that is why. I never did get around to testing the Bergger either through fixing out or bleaching. However I have tested out at least 10 other papers, some with terrible results some with good results... I even made attempts through a variation of the bleach process to retain some of the baryta layer and I definitely believe that it would be an advantage over the plain gelatin coated rag... however depending on the coating over the baryta layer there can be (depending on the manufacturer) either 'bleeding' or coating resistance problems.
As the paper I now use is 'extinct' it would be great if the Bergger turned out to be a success!
Cheers Annie
In my effort to obtain the Bergger paper I was dealing directly with Europe... perhaps that is why. I never did get around to testing the Bergger either through fixing out or bleaching. However I have tested out at least 10 other papers, some with terrible results some with good results... I even made attempts through a variation of the bleach process to retain some of the baryta layer and I definitely believe that it would be an advantage over the plain gelatin coated rag... however depending on the coating over the baryta layer there can be (depending on the manufacturer) either 'bleeding' or coating resistance problems.
As the paper I now use is 'extinct' it would be great if the Bergger turned out to be a success!
Cheers Annie
OP
OP
No. John did not mention a minimum order, at least not yet. We are simply polling people to see what the general interest is. Are you interested in buying in assuming all the obvious caveats are positive? Saying yes is not a commitment - it is simply expressing interest and a willingness to spend some amount of $$ if the terms are right for you.nick mulder said:
-Mike
OP
OP
OK, so far we have 10 people who have expressed interest in purchasing this paper assuming that all the obvious caveats are met (price, suitability, sizes, etc):
clay
Jorge
Kerik
mikewhi
Ole
JeremeyMoore
Scootermm
mateo
Annie
photo8x10
There has been a lot of discusssion by a few others but they have not explicitly stated their interest so I have not included them in the list.
Let's keep this thread active for a little while longer until John feels that he can provide some ballpark pricing and sizes, minimum orders, etc.
If you would, please keep this thread to it's intended purpose - simply to elicit a 'yes' or 'no' as to your interest in buying in. If you want to get into a lot of technical discussion, would you mind opening a new thread on that? That way, people can participate in the alternate thread and then come over to this one to vote.
If you don't see your name in the above list and you want to be added, let me know. If it's too soon for you to decide feel free to hold off until you know.
Thank you.
-Mike
clay
Jorge
Kerik
mikewhi
Ole
JeremeyMoore
Scootermm
mateo
Annie
photo8x10
There has been a lot of discusssion by a few others but they have not explicitly stated their interest so I have not included them in the list.
Let's keep this thread active for a little while longer until John feels that he can provide some ballpark pricing and sizes, minimum orders, etc.
If you would, please keep this thread to it's intended purpose - simply to elicit a 'yes' or 'no' as to your interest in buying in. If you want to get into a lot of technical discussion, would you mind opening a new thread on that? That way, people can participate in the alternate thread and then come over to this one to vote.
If you don't see your name in the above list and you want to be added, let me know. If it's too soon for you to decide feel free to hold off until you know.
Thank you.
-Mike
Mike,
Depending... bla bla bla, I would be interested in purchasing some paper.
---Michael
Depending... bla bla bla, I would be interested in purchasing some paper.
---Michael
Count me in.
OP
OP
UPDATE:
We are now up to 11 people. Anyone else, please let me know.
clay
Jorge
Kerik
mikewhi
Ole
JeremeyMoore
Scootermm
mateo
Annie
photo8x10
Michael Mutmansky
Thanks.
-Mike Whiting
We are now up to 11 people. Anyone else, please let me know.
clay
Jorge
Kerik
mikewhi
Ole
JeremeyMoore
Scootermm
mateo
Annie
photo8x10
Michael Mutmansky
Thanks.
-Mike Whiting
OP
OP
OK, 12 then, counting Robert Hall (welcome Robert). You guys please pass the word and see if we can drum up more interest. Let's try the origami crowd next.Jorge said:12, you are missing Robert Hall....
-Mike
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2005
- Messages
- 86
- Format
- ULarge Format
You may add my name to the list.
Rob
Rob
Mike,
It would make sense to see if John can get some samples to Bostick-Sullivan for testing also, because if it works for some alt processes, they would be the ones selling it, and also will do a good bit to spread the word out to other people.
I think Kevin or Dick would be possibly the most qualified to make a rapid assessment of the paper for a variety of processes as well.
I'll call Kevin about this and see if he would be willing to do some testing.
---Michael
It would make sense to see if John can get some samples to Bostick-Sullivan for testing also, because if it works for some alt processes, they would be the ones selling it, and also will do a good bit to spread the word out to other people.
I think Kevin or Dick would be possibly the most qualified to make a rapid assessment of the paper for a variety of processes as well.
I'll call Kevin about this and see if he would be willing to do some testing.
---Michael
There are a lot of companies out there selling papers and alternate process chemistry. Are you going to ask them all to test this paper? Are you going to leave any out? How can you select one over the other?
PE
PE
PE,
Nope, I could care less about that. What's with the piss and vinegar?
I know that (unless things have changed) B-S has a solid relationship with Bergger, and are the only dealer that can sell the 22x30 sheets of COT320, so they clearly have the right association with the manufacturer to be a solid conduit as well as being possibly the most experienced at the large variety of alt processes that this paper may be used with.
That said, they have tested this paper already... so there is no need to involve them.
---Michael
Nope, I could care less about that. What's with the piss and vinegar?
I know that (unless things have changed) B-S has a solid relationship with Bergger, and are the only dealer that can sell the 22x30 sheets of COT320, so they clearly have the right association with the manufacturer to be a solid conduit as well as being possibly the most experienced at the large variety of alt processes that this paper may be used with.
That said, they have tested this paper already... so there is no need to involve them.
---Michael
Nope, just a rhetorical question.
I believe that the original post by John said he wanted to work with this group himself as a Bergger rep. That was kind of in the back of my mind when I asked the question and was wondering how this would go over with him and the other dealers if John said no dealers and then you ask one 'in'.
PE
I believe that the original post by John said he wanted to work with this group himself as a Bergger rep. That was kind of in the back of my mind when I asked the question and was wondering how this would go over with him and the other dealers if John said no dealers and then you ask one 'in'.
PE
- Joined
- May 15, 2005
- Messages
- 1,212
- Format
- 8x10 Format
I may well be in on this yes - I imagine my order would be one of the smallest - unless I can find more alt process people here in NZ I could get together...
Jorge said:
Kevin said he couldn't get it to make a first rate print, and he tried a variety of methods. The other people who have tried it also apparently couldn't make it work either and abandoned it.
Unless this paper is different, I suspect it will be a bust for pt/pd at least, but it may make a good paper for other processes, including gum and carbon, and who knows what else.
---Michael
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