"Initiative TRI-X 400/220 Petition"

[DAK]

Did it.

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

I did, however, challenge some of their assumptions. My sadness is that too many people seem to want to forego effective (but more difficult) concrete action in favor of post-hoc empty symbolism that is cheap and easy.

Challenging an assumption is engaging in free speech. Calling for a petition "moratorium" because you're weary of reading about them is preventing free speech.

The petitioners have the same rights as the rest of us - no more, no less.

Ken

 

[donbga]

Ken, thanks for commenting.

Wow. I wish I were so fearsome an advocator. I'm under no illusions about stopping it; why should I care? I did, however, challenge some of their assumptions. My sadness is that too many people seem to want to forego effective (but more difficult) concrete action in favor of post-hoc empty symbolism that is cheap and easy.

And I do wish them well. I like it here, slings and arrows notwithstanding. You can block me now if you wish!

+1

 

[donbga]

Challenging an assumption is engaging in free speech. Calling for a petition "moratorium" because you're weary of reading about them is preventing free speech.

The petitioners have the same rights as the rest of us - no more, no less.

Ken

-1

 

[donbga]

:rolleyes:

Gee Ron, I didn't see your name. Unless you signed in as "RM", #23 or some other unknown name.

:rolleyes:

 

[Chazzy]

At this point, there are 216 supporters out of nearly 40,000 members of APUG. Do you really think this will impress Kodak? That is less than 1% of the membership and represents practically no film sales at all. If this were a "popular" movement, I think it more reasonable that 50% or so of the membership would sign up.

What do you all think?

PE

Be fair, Ron. The vast majority of those 40,000 take no active part on APUG in any thread, not just this one. Maybe that's a good thing—the forum would be swamped if they were all posting regularly.

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

-1

+2^(1/2)

 

[Photo Engineer]

Gee Ron, I didn't see your name. Unless you signed in as "RM", #23 or some other unknown name.

I'm not there.

PE

 

[Photo Engineer]

Be fair, Ron. The vast majority of those 40,000 take no active part on APUG in any thread, not just this one. Maybe that's a good thing—the forum would be swamped if they were all posting regularly.

But you see Chazzy, that is part of the problem as I see it.

PE

 

[jim appleyard]

I'm not there.

PE

Why? You say there are not enough names, but you don't sign. I don't get it.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Jim;

I must, in conscience, want to use that film in that format if I were to ask Kodak or anyone to make it. I don't! I use color in 120 and 220. I also use sheet films, but not B&W 220. Sorry. So, my question now is "why must I sign the petition then?".

Does my answer satisfy you?

PE

 

[jim appleyard]

Jim;

I must, in conscience, want to use that film in that format if I were to ask Kodak or anyone to make it. I don't! I use color in 120 and 220. I also use sheet films, but not B&W 220. Sorry. So, my question now is "why must I sign the petition then?".

Does my answer satisfy you?

PE

No, your answer doesn't satisfy me. Use the film you want to, but don't slam folks for trying to save it. If TXP 220 isn't your bag, why are you here wasting your time bitching about a petition?

 

[Chazzy]

But you see Chazzy, that is part of the problem as I see it.

PE

Sorry, Ron, but APUG's inactive members are a completely different issue from the potential market for 220 TX. It would be interesting if Sean would tell us how many distinct individuals made at least one post last month. The majority of posts are made by a relatively small number of people posting over and over again. All things considered, I would say that having more than 200 signers of the petition so far is an excellent start. Of course, it will take time to get word of the petition to everyone who might like to sign it. Probably most 220 users will never hear of the petition at all. Not everyone wants to spend time on Internet photography forums.

 

[sperera]

i signed it too...

 

[Rolleiflexible]

No, your answer doesn't satisfy me. Use the film you want to, but don't slam folks for trying to save it. If TXP 220 isn't your bag, why are you here wasting your time bitching about a petition?

Isn't this the problem with the petition?

How many people who sign the petition actually
use TXP or 220 film? It's too easy to sign -- it
means nothing. Jim objects to Ron's refusal to
sign (a principled decision on Ron's part) and
never mind that Ron never intends to use the
film. It's that mentality that makes the petition
worth nothing in the face of what the market
has already told Kodak.

Find a way to underwrite the production costs.
Get people together to buy a master roll. Or, form
a company devoted to distributing and selling TXP
220, contract with Kodak to manufacture the film,
and assume Kodak's risk that the film cannot be
sold profitably at retail. Or, persuade Freestyle to
buy TXP 220 from Kodak in sufficient quantities for
distribution and resale under Freestyle's Arista label.
Or, find some other way to give Kodak the financial
commitment it needs to continue to produce the
film. That's how you can make a difference.

But if you want to save the film, do something that
might save it. A petition isn't going to do it and no
amount of wishful thinking will make it otherwise.

 

[36cm2]

With the utmost respect for the posters on this thread, particularly this last bit, it might just be better to drop the useless banter. It sounds like most readers agree this is pretty straightforward: sign it if you used TXP 220 and want it back on the market, don't sign it if you didn't and don't (for whatever reason) and move on to more useful threads if you think this is a waste of time. Since the OP first posted this I must have read over 50 other threads that were immeasurably more illuminating, and yet this one pops up more on today's threads than any other. Just my two cents. I hope it helps.

 

[2F/2F]

I will put $1,000 in on one last run of it, if that is a possibility, and if there are a few months for me to save the dough. It will be an uncomfortable adjustment for me not having this film around. Who is with me?

 

[Photo Engineer]

No, your answer doesn't satisfy me. Use the film you want to, but don't slam folks for trying to save it. If TXP 220 isn't your bag, why are you here wasting your time bitching about a petition?

Jim;

I have to say that this is a most egregious distortion of what I have posted here. I have slammed no one! I have also not complained about the petition in any way.

I have commented on the low number of signers and that is all. It seems to me in the face of your vehemence you have lost sight of the fact that some people do not feel the way you do, and if they do not, then you try to make them into an adversary.

I must say that in my own way I have done more to support analog than most members or subscribers here have done. And, the form it takes is more than just signing a petition!

PE

 

[mikebarger]

Sanders' post could couldn't any closer to the target and 2F/2F has the first post going in the right direction to get Tri-X on a 220 base. He just needs a "few" more to pony up some bucks.

I agree Ron, I don't have a clue how that comment could have been posted about you. Really says more about the poster.


Mike

 

[2F/2F]

Isn't this the problem with the petition?

How many people who sign the petition actually
use TXP or 220 film? It's too easy to sign -- it
means nothing. Jim objects to Ron's refusal to
sign (a principled decision on Ron's part) and
never mind that Ron never intends to use the
film. It's that mentality that makes the petition
worth nothing in the face of what the market
has already told Kodak.

Find a way to underwrite the production costs.
Get people together to buy a master roll. Or, form
a company devoted to distributing and selling TXP
220, contract with Kodak to manufacture the film,
and assume Kodak's risk that the film cannot be
sold profitably at retail. Or, persuade Freestyle to
buy TXP 220 from Kodak in sufficient quantities for
distribution and resale under Freestyle's Arista label.
Or, find some other way to give Kodak the financial
commitment it needs to continue to produce the
film. That's how you can make a difference.

But if you want to save the film, do something that
might save it. A petition isn't going to do it and no
amount of wishful thinking will make it otherwise.

As I said earlier in the thread:

"The problem is that anybody with any real money shoots digital these days. They don't spend their big money on film now, but on electronics. Good luck keeping things from disappearing without the commercial world moving back toward film. We all flap our gums a lot about the glory of this and that emulsion, but how much do we actually buy, collectively? News flash: people with money control the way things go. You want change, get people with money to make it for you."

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

I have an idea.

How 'bout we just let the petitioners... petition?

Not try to talk them out of it. Not tell them how long - or impossible - the odds are. Not remind them how few signers they currently have. Not tell them they're wasting their time. Not ask them for a moratorium. Not tell them how far off target they are. Not imply they know nothing about film manufacturing. Or marketing. Or sales. Or business. Or anything else.

We would just let them... petition.

And if we agree with their petition's position and goals, we sign on. And if we don't, we quietly move on. Just like any other petition. You guys have all been approached outside of libraries and grocery stores. You all know the dance.

Then ultimately their petition will either succeed, and there will be 220 400TX. Or it will fail, and there won't. And that will be the end of it.

Ken

 

[2F/2F]

I have an idea.

How 'bout we just let the petitioners... petition?

Not try to talk them out of it. Not tell them how long - or impossible - the odds are. Not remind them how few signers they currently have. Not tell them they're wasting their time. Not ask them for a moratorium. Not tell them how far off target they are. Not imply they know nothing about film manufacturing. Or marketing. Or sales. Or business. Or anything else.

We would just let them... petition.

And if we agree with their petition's position and goals, we sign on. And if we don't, we quietly move on. Just like any other petition. You guys have all been approached outside of libraries and grocery stores. You all know the dance.

Then ultimately their petition will either succeed, and there will be 220 400TX. Or it will fail, and there won't. And that will be the end of it.

Ken

DITTO!

...though I do always tell people outside of markets why I am not going to sign that crap...and that usually leads to a discussion of sorts, which is either worth having, or not, depending on many factors. It is usually at least worth a shot, though. It is part of living in a society to interact and respond.

So, you can do both, Ken!

 

[mikebarger]

You guys never haggle with the petitioners outside the grocery store wanting the government to free Elvis??

Mike

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

You guys never haggle with the petitioners outside the grocery store wanting the government to free Elvis??

Heh, heh. Mike, the last petitioner I saw was dressed up AS Elvis. And I didn't argue with him. Didn't want to upset him at all, actually...

Ken

 

[donbga]

And that will be the end of it.

Ken

Hey Ken,

Love your web site! Nice work.