Info from Fuji re: Acros

[Ray Rogers]

What is ISO 9?
(ISO9000 I recall seeing...)

As for as tkamiya's (earlier) comments, I wonder what Japanese he is referring to...

The statements I saw here in Shinjuku was just as confusing...
In one announcement, 3 terms were used:
seizou chushi (production discontinued)
hanbai chushi (sales discontinued)
and one more (which I forget but) whch meant a packaging change.

Now nothing hard or confusing about that except that

1.
The TITLE was "seizou chushi" yet not a single product was specifically noted as being discontinued... just the count per package. The only way to make sense of this seems to be if you consider indivudial pkgs as a product... that would perhaps be true for a marketer (Marketeer?) who sells them to the retailers...

2.
Production and Sales are not the same thing and one may continue despite the status of the other.

Hummm...
I wonder if Fuji is somehow capable of "prohibiting" sale of individual rolls?
Anyway, are there any outstanding questions about "production" that need to be resolved?

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

I've heard and read about these theories many times. They are often accompanied with with a statement or two on how dedicated employees are to their job and they do the best they can.

I was born, lived, and worked in that culture for many years. Truth is, above statement only covers half of what lead to the success of many companies. The fact is, this dedication and attention to detail is based on fear. Fear that if you make a mistake, you will "lose face", which will cause your boss "lose face" which will affect your promotion or future with the company. If you lose your job, you and your family will "lose face" to the extended families, friends, neighbors, and so on. Some of it has changed since life time employment is a thing of the past in some industries but in old companies, these old habits remain. It's hard to explain what "lose face" mean in Japanese culture unless you lived there, but it is similar to end your life as you know it, short of, of course, actually dieing. People will do anything to try to avoid it, including staying after work for hours for unpaid work, covering up problems, or going with "the flow" knowing it is wrong.

Another thing is (somewhat related to the topic on hand), middle level managers often have no idea of the engineering side or technical side of the product. In fact, it isn't unusual that accounting department manager doesn't have a degree or a formal training in accounting degree. It isn't unusual that IT manager doesn't have a training or experience in that field, etc. I know - I worked for them. It's purposely done this way so things get done in the way "they've always done it." They actually don't want superstar student who will try to invent or try to right things. Because of this, often, managers and leaders are unable to distinguish from what's right to wrong, from what's important to not important, etc. The way they've always done it is the only right way.

It's a rather elaborate explanations but I see this clear message to the market "thing" just another manifestation of this problem. They wrote it up in Japanese, translated it by someone not culturally aware, and sent it out.

I find this an absolutely facinating insight.

Thanks,
Ken

 

[tkamiya]

Ray,

We as consumers see the same film packaged as single and as 5 pack the same product. Manufacturers don't think the same way. They have different SKU (stock keeping unit) so they see them as different products with their unique package, pricing, etc. As far as they are concerned, they stopped making "the single pack". They stopped single pack of the film from leaving the factory as a product. Therefore, seizou-chushi is appropriate in their views.

Not only on Fuji film but for my favorite type as well, I keep hitting back-order situation a lot from my New York vendors. I *think* stores aren't keeping very large stock, and I'm guessing middlemen aren't keeping large stock either. I'm *guessing*, the actual discontinuation of manufacturing stopped a while back. So sellers are not able to replenish their stock, for us, it seems like Fuji is somehow controlling the sellers... This is my GUESS...

 

[Ray Rogers]

I've heard and read about these theories many times. They are often accompanied with with a statement or two on how dedicated employees are to their job and they do the best they can.

I was born, lived, and worked in that culture for many years. Truth is, above statement only covers half of what lead to the success of many companies. The fact is, this dedication and attention to detail is based on fear. Fear that if you make a mistake, you will "lose face"

This is a very interesting subject to me, but I disagree with your explanation... that is I disagree with the "lose face" part... said like that somehow it sounds less than commendable... but in practice, it is more complicated than that... I think a large portion of one's self-image is derrived from how well one serves his or her company... or rather, one's perception of that service.

Workers tend to become "technicians" at their job...
often they have a dogmatic approach to the way things are to be done but they ARE open to better (more efficient) ways of doing things.

It is just that it is not that easy to improve on things that are in fact, pretty efficient already and when in doubt it is felt better to be safe.

Any way I agree with the other things you said...
I think it is quite complicated... the participation of the company managers is often overlooked... they don't know when enough is enough.

 

[clayne]

This is a very interesting subject to me, but I disagree with your explanation... that is I disagree with the "lose face" part... said like that somehow it sounds less than commendable... but in practice, it is more complicated than that... I think a large portion of one's self-image is derrived from how well one serves his or her company... or rather, one's perception of that service.

Ray, don't know how familiar you are with certain Asian cultures, but saving face and not losing it is a pretty big deal.

 

[tkamiya]

Ray,

You are very welcome to disagree with my views. I was born there, lived there, and worked there for a few decades but that doesn't mean my views are universally correct about that culture.

Of course, "losing face" isn't that simple. It has a big part that has to do with self-image. But, for growing up in a culture where you are taught to do well but never to stand out in a crowd, be watchful of others' view of you, etc, and when one's life is so dependent on how others think of you, it becomes very VERY complicated. Yes, the "man's value" is dependent on how HIS company values his work. IN AN ENVIRONMENT where he is not supposed to make waves - a move that could possibly make others lose their face.

As to workers - There is no doubt each worker is very skilled at their job. Otherwise, superior products we see today won't be here. But, someone not having good understanding of the theory becoming very good by repetition isn't always the same as having base education and excelling from that point. Internally, Japanese companies are plagued with legacy systems and bureaucratic procedures. It's not as efficient as it looks from outside.

Another thing - in Japanese culture, suggesting there IS a better way is the same thing as the existing system is inferior. The existing system was proposed by someone and was approved by levels of mid and upper level executives (who didn't understand the proposal but put his personal seal anyway). If one isn't careful, and it's called "nemawashi" - that is to let everyone know before changes can be proposed, and even then, it can be taken as insult to the company or people involved. It's quite a bit of sensitive matter to propose changes.

Once again, you are free to disagree. This is my view and experience.

 

[firecracker]

Yeah, the "mentsu" thing, right? One's pride and status in the Japanese sense.

It's a culture of humiliation, I would say.

 

[RichardE]

tkamiya - Thanks for those comments, most interesting.

As I said, my own college studies were a long time ago, and there is, no doubt, now a better understanding of cultural differences.

With "globalisation", we can sometimes think that "everywhere is now the same" but then see articles or programs which make us realise that big differences do still exist.

I visited China and Hong Kong some years ago and found the guides were genuinely very friendly and helpful, but it was also pointed out to me that part of this may have been down to the cultural fear of "losing face" if any of our party had found reason to complain about anything in their work.

 

[Ray Rogers]

Ray,

You are very welcome to disagree with my views. I was born there, lived there, and worked there for a few decades but that doesn't mean my views are universally correct about that culture.

Of course, "losing face" isn't that simple. It has a big part that has to do with self-image. But, for growing up in a culture where you are taught to do well but never to stand out in a crowd, be watchful of others' view of you, etc, and when one's life is so dependent on how others think of you, it becomes very VERY complicated.


As to workers - There is no doubt each worker is very skilled at their job. Otherwise, superior products we see today won't be here. But, someone not having good understanding of the theory becoming very good by repetition isn't always the same as having base education and excelling from that point.

Another thing - in Japanese culture, suggesting there IS a better way is the same thing as the existing system is inferior. The existing system was proposed by someone and was approved by levels of mid and upper level executives (who didn't understand the proposal but put his personal seal anyway). If one isn't careful, and it's called "nemawashi" - that is to let everyone know before changes can be proposed, and even then, it can be taken as insult to the company or people involved. It's quite a bit of sensitive matter to propose changes.
[cut]

I appreciate that. I don't wish to make waves
Nor do I mean to put down your views... I just think the Japanese mind has not been well described yet... despite many many attempts.

Many statements about the Japanese also applies to many other cultures.
Nemawashi, don't US politicians do the same?
If I understand the term, it seems a prudent thing to do... make sure you have sufficient support before going public....

As far as inferior/superior... I don't know about fuzzy things where the status quo is good enough, but when there is a clear problem, I have seen Japanese managers take active measures to improve or diminsh the problem... to the extent of calling in inventors and designers as well as asking workers their ideas.

When one worker is just talking out loud about a lot of conjecture, sure, people may not pay that much attention; he really needs to drive his point home if he wants to change something doesn't really appear to need fixing.

Anyway, it is pointless to talk in generalites. I just wanted to say that characterization of the Japanese Mind has been oversimplified to the point of being misleading... and in many cases, it is perhaps more a question of degree rather than essence. We all live in a vertical society. We all speak differently to those we respect and those we do not.

back on topic...
Are there any unresolved Fuji film issues?

 

[tkamiya]

Different views are very welcome, Ray. As I said, I don't claim to be an authority or well studied in this area. This is just one man's view and opinion based on own experience.

I agree with you that Japanese culture has been over simplified (as you say) in most cases. I have yet to see any writing that took a comprehensive view of all aspect. I am not even sure that's even possible. Describing them simply as "loyal" and "hard working" just doesn't cut it.

One thing I'll add is that in those "Kaizen" meetings, new employee or mid-level managers may speak up, but when they do, they are very mindful of not discrediting others - especially those who came up with the current process. I believe this is part of a reason where radical ideas and changes are rare. They are almost always small and incremental changes.

Anyway, back to film discussion. I enjoyed our discourse.

 

[michaelbsc]

... I just think the Japanese mind has not been well described yet... despite many many attempts.

I believe that part of this is really the language barrier. There are things which are particularly American and we describe them in English in ways that don't translate properly. Particularly things that are very nuanced.

Likewise, there are things in Japan that are very nuanced, and these nuances are without adequate description in English. Or at least they aren't describable without paragraphs - or maybe pages - of English, whereas in Japanese there is a word or phrase that covers the whole things. Sort of like "saving face" is described. I'll wager a roll of Tri-X that every Japanese school kid can innately understand the concept of face through multiple levels, but explaining everything in that concept is more aptly summed up in the English phrase "you ought to be ashamed" than it is in many of the texts on what the oriental concept of "face" means in English.

The language influences the culture as much as the culture influences the language.

 

[Ray Rogers]

-tkamiya, Thanks, so have I...

Michaelbsc - Yes. The candle and the flame...

Are you familiar with George Orwell's "1984"? In that novel, the state attempts to elminate Free Thought by serverely reducing the vocabulary of it's people.

Yuck! all I can say to that idea is Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious!

-------------------------------
"Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious!
Even though the sound of it
is something quite atrocious
If you say it loud enough you'll
always sound precocious
better use it carefully or it
could change your life......

(Robert and Richard Sherman)

 

[firecracker]

Are you familiar with these academic sites?

http://www.japanfocus.org/

http://www.japanesestudies.org.uk/contents/intro.html

 

[michaelbsc]

Are you familiar with George Orwell's "1984"? In that novel, the state attempts to elminate Free Thought by serverely reducing the vocabulary of it's people.

Yes, I am very familiar with that. Actually Orwell, and the concept of Newspeak, is exactly where I first started thinking about this concept about 35 years ago. It fascinates me that without the words to say something, one cannot think that thing either.

(Some months ago Maris posted quite a long dissertation about the language we use to describe "prints" that also touched on this concept. We need to change the language of silver based imaging, not the techniques. Some disagreed, but I think Maris was spot on in his assessment.)

This is part of the reason I've always tried to learn how to say at least the relevant things in the local vernacular on projects. Our wet-cell neural network can "learn" a nuanced concept by exposure in a way that our rational examination cannot adequately dissect or accurately describe. Specifically, if the foreign concept doesn't have a literal and technically correct translation, there's no proper descriptors to map the foreign concept onto the target world view. (Usually "mine" is the target world view; I need to understand the concept for the project, so I need to internalize it.)

For example, 400-750nm light maps pretty clearly in almost any language in the modern world. But "save face" is tremendously difficult to explain in English without a whole book. And I dare say that the American Southern Gentleman's version of "honor" is not understood by most people in Japan, despite the fact that "honor" is tremendously important in the Japanese culture. The words mean different things in the different contexts, but they are the most "equivalent" translation available.

Now, I'll throw a thought out that seems heretical. What if the "reality" of the world is not fixed independent of the observer? (Copenhagen View). Is the universe different in the Orient than in the Occident? Really, truly different?

So what do you photograph? What reality? Again, the camera catches light. The photographer catches life. But what are you really catching?

Michael

 

[epatsellis]

...Conversely, when was the last time you saw a company advertise its products by including reference to an ISO9??? certification of any sort? There was a time back in the Dark Ages when that level of quality was considered ad-worthy.

Ken

Heck, even before ISO 9XXX we had MRP II certification (essentially the same thing), I doubt many outside of manufacturing ever heard of it, however.

 

[michaelbsc]

Heck, even before ISO 9XXX we had MRP II certification (essentially the same thing), I doubt many outside of manufacturing ever heard of it, however.

Oh, little MRP (plain MRP) and Big MRP (MRP II). I remember those!

Am I admitting my age here? Maybe I don't remember them. Hell, maybe I don't even remember my own name. (There I go, admitting my age again. Drat!)

MB