Inert gases for E6 chemical storage

[Bob F.]

I'm sorry I mentioned argon now! .

It is convenient where you can get the disposable bottles (12 GBP each and they will last ages - I've had mine well over a year of fairly regular use). But, obviously, if you have to buy a large bottle, plus have it filled, then you are clearly better off using the cheaper nitrogen.

I think that's the correct summary on that.

 

[Skorzen]

Hate to sound like a broken record again but, freeze 'em!

- Mix the full 5L kit the 1st time you process

- separate into plastic water bottles (I use 500ml bottles to leave room for expansion)

- place in freezer (I use a deep freeze)

- done

When you're ready to process, pull from freezer and thaw. No more time spent mixing chems and playing with graduates EVERY time you wanna process a quick roll or 2.

Read this thread if you'd like more info:

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

The link isn't working for me...

 

[Kirk Keyes]

I don't think I've seen anyone mention cubitainers - seems like they should work. I know Kodak used to deliver chemistry for processing machines in cubitainers so there should not be much issue with them. I've seen them in 1L, 5L, and 20L sizes.

 

[Aurum]

Argon gas is totally inert for all practical purposes. It, along with Nitrogen are virtually ideal for storage, but Nitrogen is less costly.

All inert gases are suffocants, that is they can cause loss of consciousness and death in confined areas. They must be used with caution. Butane and Propane are flammable gases and also form explosive mixtures with air. As such, I restrict use of them in case of a static spark which could start a fire.

Use any of these you wish, but being a chemist, I prefer Nitrogen. Kodak has suggested this for years.

PE

I think its a case of whats available cheaply in the locality.
In the UK, Nitrogen cylinders are typically the 5 foot high jobs, and they have to be rented, and refilled by the company supplying them (Health and Safety regs in the UK) Its not worthwhile renting for personal use.
The small tanks of argon or argon/CO2 welding blends can be bought in high street tool stores or motor spares shops here, so its a sensible option.
Me personally, I think Butane cigarette lighter refills (The ones that come as aerosols) are good enough. I feel the fire risk is not significant, but thats my POV (I've worked in and formulated products in an Aerosol plant) and I understand yours entirely.

I suppose the other answer to the question, however, is to encourage the use of numerous rolls of E6, then developing them all before the chems oxidise!
I'm sure if Ektachrome was being used, Kodak would support this without complaint!

 

[bdial]

A few days ago in the big home center I ran across bottles of CO2 for portably powering pneumatic nailers. It made me curious if the CO2 would be OK to use for this purpose.
I've been using a product called VineyardFresh wine preservative with by B&W chemistry lately, and I will likely use it for the E-6 when I open it. I believe Vineyard Fresh is mostly nitrogen. I've never had much problem with chemistry oxidizing, so it's hard to say how well it actually works.

 

[Kirk Keyes]

CO2 dissolves in the water and can affect buffering and pH. It's not recommended for photo solutions.

 

[Smudger]

Tetenal Protectan

I have some difficulty with the assertion that Protectan is a butane/Propane mix..
I have a Protectan aerosol which I bought at least 20 years ago,and nowhere on the label does it contain any warnings about inflamability.
It describes the contents as "a neutral gas which drives out the much lighter air from storage bottles...(it) is neither toxic nor inflammable".

 

[AgX]

There are two versions of Protectan.

The original version contained CFCs (which are unflammable).
However, with the insight of the environmental effects of CFCs they have been banned and Protectan now contains Butane or Propane.

 

[Pupfish]

I've had any number of partially-used E6 5L kits oxidize and have thought of using nitrogen. Easy enough as I already have N2 tanks at my observatory/home. We use it plumbed into an automatic humidistat controlled system for excluding air from the telescope mirror chamber in damp weather. I've also got a small empty N2 feeder bottle about the size of a small propane cylinder, but labelled specifically for N2; perhaps originally used for an astronomical process (as the hydrogen ones I've seen used in hypering film).

What I want to know is what procedure you use to exclude air with N2 and the 5L chemicals, and which components you find most affected by oxidation?

 

[Photo Engineer]

First developer, reversal bath and color developer are the only ones that are really affected by oxidation and that can be protected.

The Fixer cannot be protected.

PE

 

[richard ide]

We use about a hundred gallons of liquid argon per week at work. Now I have to figure a way to extract some from a dewar flask and get it home.

 

[Skorzen]

I just did a little looking around on ebay and found that there are small tanks meant for nitrogen used for paintball. I suppose that this would mean that tanks and nitrogen would be available at paintball shops. The tanks were still not cheap ($50-$200) but it might be an option for people who don't want a big tank sitting around. The only thing that wasn't clear to me was how you turn the gas on and off (although it looked like a small valve).

 

[Photo Engineer]

The paintball tanks are hard to get reducing valves for. The welding tanks are easy to get valves for.

I know. I have both a paintball gun, and a large tank! Yeah, yeah, I know. What is a guy my age doing with a paintball gun! Ever hear of grandsons?

I forgot to add that the paintball tanks must be reinspected on a regular basis as they are made of softer materials considering the pressure, and the cost is almost what a professional tank costs and the paintball tank holds a LOT less.

PE

 

[resummerfield]

Steve Lindsay sells a co2 regulator for paintball cartridges that he uses for his Palm Control engraver. I don’t know the cost, but it is an option.

 

[Rob Landry]

The link isn't working for me...

Sorry,

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

 

[Photo Engineer]

Very nice. Thanks.

I love it. I would still adhere to the inspection cycle for the paintball containers. Also, filling one costs about the same as filling the larger tank when all is considered.

Gee. I have another option when I run out of my big tank in about 400 years.

JK.

PE

 

[Aurum]

Or you get a LOT of paintball ammo, an adaptor for the large tank, and audition for a Sony Advert

 

[Photo Engineer]

Here we play at the old Jello plant in LeRoy NY. Ironic to play in the birthplace of Jello and so close to Kodak.

PE

 

[Shmoo]

Have you checked out Private Preserve? It's a wine preserver in a cannister that shoots purified CO2, Argon, & Nitrogen on top of your open bottle of wine and creates a layer that sits on top of the liquid. I've used this in B&W chems and had no problems and it's relatively cheap. I found it at the Wine House in West L.A.

S

 

[Photo Engineer]

Again, the only thing I would worry about is the pH effect of the carbon dioxide gas in the mix.

PE

 

[bdial]

FWIW, according to the website for the VineyardFresh product I've been using, it is Argon and Nitrogen.
Dead Link Removed

 

[AgX]

That company states that their mix is intented to be usded just by forming a barrier layer on top of the wine, not by expelling all the air from the bottle.
But to my understanding gases will blend into each other by time due to diffusion, thus that barrier would dissolve.

 

[tim_walls]

This is all cool, either Nitrogen or Argon looks sensible according to local availability - my question is this; how do you get it into the bottle without shooting a jet of whatever-chemical-you're-covering across the room?

Is it just a case of being careful and opening the regulator very slowly or is there some kind of cunning technique or tool [like the aforementioned wine preserver?]


I have trouble covering the Kodak E6 colour developer (glass bottle) using a can of Protectan without creating a fine mist of CD in the air; the thought of using a large canister of compressed gas scares me!

 

[Photo Engineer]

I have a pressure reducing valve, mentioned in my first post, that I have set at about 5 - 10 PSI. I also have a hand held release nozzle on a long hose attached to the valve. When on, the tubing is at low pressure and I inset the nozzle into the jug of developer and press the hand lever for a few seconds. The nitrogen sweeps the air out of the jug.

I hang the hose and nozzle on a cup hook in a corner of the darkroom next to the enlarger, so I can use it to blow dust off of negatives too.

PE

 

[AgX]

If you could lay hand on some simple low-flux flowmeter and attach before the nozzle the most perfect inert gas supply system would be yours.
(Yes, one could measure the flux once and count seconds...)

Such a system is what I always got on my mind, but up to now the price deterred me.