Increasing pH of commercial fixer to reduce odour

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john_s

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With photo chemistry becoming more expensive, I have noticed that I can get traditional acidic fixer quite a lot cheaper than neutral or alkaline fixer. I used to use Agfa C-41 fixer which was neutral and practically odourless, then Kodak Flexicolor Fixer which was similar. This has become harder to obtain.

Can I judiciously add sodium hydroxide to acidic fixer to bring it closer to neutral?

Minimal odour fixer makes life in a darkroom much more pleasant!
 

grainyvision

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Likely not. The acidic pH is chosen based on ingredients and those ingredients specifically tend to be preserved best in acid. Same thing for alkali pH. If you're ok with a short tray life and non-rapid fixer, you can mix your own from cheap thiosulfate (hypo). It'll definitely be odorless, but will decay within hours once it fixes the first piece of film/paper
 
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FWIW, I've been using Ilford's Rapid Fixer or Hypam at the 1+9 dilution for printing for a while now and it is, for all intents and purposes, odorless. The acetic acid stop smells a lot more...

Doremus
 

Rudeofus

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Likely not. The acidic pH is chosen based on ingredients and those ingredients specifically tend to be preserved best in acid. Same thing for alkali pH. If you're ok with a short tray life and non-rapid fixer, you can mix your own from cheap thiosulfate (hypo). It'll definitely be odorless, but will decay within hours once it fixes the first piece of film/paper
Do you have any data to back up this claim? The only two benefits of acidic fixers are compatibility with hardening (which barely anyone uses any longer) and that you may avoid using a stop bath. There is absolutely nothing in these fixers which needs the acidity for longevity or fixer effectiveness.

I recommend, that you use Ammonia solution to raise fixer pH, since sodium ions will eventually slow down fixer.
 

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The Darkroom Cookbook states that the lifetime of either acid or alkaline fixer is greater than that of plain hypo (thiosulfate) - as in, the difference between reusable or not. Plain hypo also doesn't neutralize alkaline carryover from the developer, unless you use an acid stop bath.

The characteristic smell of fixer is sulfur dioxide, not acid per se, so adding base to fiddle with the pH doesn't automatically reduce the smell unless that also prevents the formation of sulfur dioxide.
 
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john_s

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.................The characteristic smell of fixer is sulfur dioxide, not acid per se, so adding base to fiddle with the pH doesn't automatically reduce the smell unless that also prevents the formation of sulfur dioxide.

Which it does.
Less acidic fixer washes out of fibre paper faster which is another reason to use it.
 
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john_s

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.......................I recommend, that you use Ammonia solution to raise fixer pH, since sodium ions will eventually slow down fixer.

Good point, although it might be harder to obtain here (without additives for cleaning purposes like colour, perfume etc). I thought that I wouldn't need much of the NaOH since it is such a powerful alkali. It's also easy to obtain.

Edit: I found this, see post #3
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/a-neutral-quick-fixer-formula.157021/#post-2050602

I don't need to go all the way to pH8, just under pH7 as recommended by PE in a post some time ago (which I'll try to locate).

Edit: I located it. See post #18 in this thread:

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...sodium-thiosulfate-fixers.78105/#post-1072451
 
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grainyvision

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I've observed that some people find either acidic fixers or alkaline fixers to be smelly, but not both... or at least are less sensitive. For me, I've found TF-4 to be fairly smelly (like ammonia) and Ilford rapid fix to have pretty much no smell. I've seen others report TF-4 has almost no smell and Ilford rapid fix to be very smelly. Despite TF-4 being smelly to me, I still use it because of long life, no need for stop bath, and it's known to be easier to wash out. It's only especially smelly the day I mix it, and I have a sheet of cardboard I put over the tray to combat that

edit: the exclusion is I find Ilford rapid fix to be almost no smell, UNLESS it has been mixed for so long that it starts to sulfur out, at which point it'll smell like rotten eggs (sulfide). I've done enough chemistry failures/accidents with sodium sulfite and such to experience sulfur dioxide smell and it actually is less of a smell to me and more of my nose just being annihilated. It's unlike any smell I can compare it to, but isn't the rotten egg smell at all
 
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lantau

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Concentrated Ammonium thiosulfate solution is stable, probably indefinitely, when stored. Once you start using it as a fixer, I guess that is when it will expire quickly. Acid fixers will keep much better, but will decompose eventually. That will yield Sulfur precipitation and the rotten egg smell. Neutral and alkaline fixers don't do that same reaction. But I've heard they may loose activity over time, without indicating it.

Normal, working, acidic fixer smells horrible, IMHO. I don't know if it is the thiosulfate or some other sulfur based intermediate. But it isn't a volatile smell and is barely noticeable at normal usage. I have been using Rollei RXN neutral fixer for a while in the positive darkroom. Now that my last bottle of the old, pre plus Adofix has been used up I switched to RXN for film as well. The strange thing is that RXN doesn't have ammonia smell fresh out of the bottle. But when I'm fixing my prints I do smell some ammonia, sometimes. I'm using a Nova slot processor. I need to get close to the slot to notice it.

I quite like the smell of ammonia. Of course it shouldn't be as concentrated as to 'bite' in the nose (and eyes). But it is the least worrying lab smell for me.

Personally I wouldn't consider converting acidic fixer to neutral. Just too much trouble. As mentioned above, you 'd have to use ammonium in order to not introduce sodium ions. Also, the fixer should be buffered at the new pH. From neutralisation you'll have ammonia acetate in there already. Don't know out of my head if you can built a suitable buffer going from there.

You should try to find out if you can get 60% Ammonium thiosulfate solution at a reasonable price. Even if you have to buy a larger amount at once. It has a heavy ammonia smell, but that goes away when you make neutral fixer from it. I think there is a recipe here in the knowledge section, or look up Kodaks ECN2 documentation and make ECN2 fixer from it. That should work for everything else.
 
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Concentrated rapid fixer stock solutions (ammonium thiosulfate 60% plus additives) will go bad with age and start to precipitate out sulfur after long storage times. Most rapid fixers contain sodium sulfite to protect against oxidation a bit, IIRC. I don't think that a plain 60% solution of ammonium thiosulfate would have an "indefinite" lifespan, probably years, though, especially if stored in full, air-tight containers. Once you open it and use some, however, the air in the container begins to work, degrading the fixer slowly.

FWIW, I'm one of those that can't deal with the ammonia odor of many alkaline fixers (e.g., TF-4). I much prefer the slightly-acidic Ilford Rapid Fixer.

Doremus
 

Rudeofus

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Once you start using it as a fixer, I guess that is when it will expire quickly. Acid fixers will keep much better, but will decompose eventually.
Please tell me where you have this from. This matches neither my reading of literature, nor my practical experience.
 

lantau

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Please tell me where you have this from. This matches neither my reading of literature, nor my practical experience.

Up there in the thread. Apparently pure thiosulfate won't last long as a fixer. I've seen that claim here at least once before. I take that as an empirical result from the poster.

As I stated, I don't see why fresh (unused) , well stored ammonium thiosulfate should decompose. I read a document from a manufacturer/distributor once, that stated something that I remember as 'indefinitely'. Might have been a MSDS.

Manufacturers of acidic fixers state their limited life time. I had this happen only once. In my hands it usually lasted much longer than Adox recommends.
 

Rudeofus

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Ammonium Thiosulfate 60% is said to be stable. It is a very concentrated solution, and Oxygen will not dissolve very well. I have not seen Ammonium Thiosulfate 60% go bad yet, even after years of storage in hot area at least during Summer.
Once you dilute it and optionally mix in sulfite ions, you get several effects:
  1. Oxygen will attack first the sulfite ions, then the thiosulfate ions. In both cases pH will drop, and it will drop faster when thiosulfate ions are oxidized.
  2. If the resulting liquid is acidic, Sulfur Dioxide will form and leave the solution (c.f. smell of rotten eggs). It will do this faster at lower pH, but not at neutral or alkaline pH.
  3. Sulfur Dioxide also goes through the reaction 4 SO2 + 3 H2O <===> 2 H2SO4 + H2S2O3. Obviously the speed of this reaction will be proportional to amount of available Sulfur Dioxide, which means much faster at low pH. This is a disproportionation reaction, which will also take place in a perfectly sealed container!
  4. if pH drops below 4, the thiosulfate ions will decompose into sulfite ion and sulfur. Once that happens, your fixer is toast.
If you just dilute the Ammonium Thiosulfate concentrate, you will at first see action (1), which will then quickly devolve into action (4).

If you have a neutral or alkaline fixer at working solution strength, sulfite ions stay what they are, they do not form Sulfur Dioxide. Oxidation will very slowly oxidize first the sulfite, then the thiosulfate, but it will not sulfur out.

If you have an acidic fixer, there will be a combination of sulfite decomposition (= release of Sulfur Dioxide), sulfite oxidation and sulfur disproportionation. The close pH is to 4, the faster the sulfite decomposition process will be. Once all the sulfite ions are decomposed and/or oxidized, oxidation will drop pH quickly and your fixer will go bad.

Conclusion: a reasonably buffered Ammonium Thiosulfate based fixer with 10-20 g/l Ammonium/Sodium Sulfite will last for months as used working solution. Right now we use cheap Tetenal color fixer, diluted 1+9, and the working solution lasts at least a month and goes through a half dozen darkroom sessions in this time. Fixer pH is about 7.5.

PS: I have never read about this disproportionation reaction of Sulfur Dioxide in photographic literature geared towards amateurs. It has been described in scientific literature, though, e.g. The Stability of Concentrated Thiosulphate Solutions at High Temperature. Part II: The Loss of Sulphite, by E. R. Brumpton and G. I. P. Levenson, in The Journal of Photographic Science, vol 13, p 79ff. The attached graph shows this effect including the increase in thiosulfate concentration during fixer decay.

Screenshot from 2020-06-10 19-43-45.png
 
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john_s

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Thank you Rudeofus for this thorough explanation.

This is consistent with my observations that neutral and alkaline fixers have a very long life in storage, and that acidic ones can deteriorate with sulphur precipitate.
 

Sirius Glass

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Consider TF4 or TF5. Both last a long time. PE developed TF5 and discussed its long life and advantages over other fixers.
 
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Rudi,

You've set me straight yet again.

Do I have this right? it's just the compounded rapid fixers (with sulfite, etc.) that will go bad with time, but a simple 60% solution of ammonium thiosulfate will last indefinitely?

TIA,

Doremus
 
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john_s

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Consider TF4 or TF5. Both last a long time. PE developed TF5 and discussed its long life and advantages over other fixers.

Good idea, but here at the end of the Earth the price would be prohibitive. (Actually New Zealand is the End of the Earth, but near enough)
 
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john_s

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Rudi,

You've set me straight yet again.

Do I have this right? it's just the compounded rapid fixers (with sulfite, etc.) that will go bad with time, but a simple 60% solution of ammonium thiosulfate will last indefinitely?

TIA,

Doremus

It's the pH that makes the difference. Acid shortens the life of fixer. The fact that ammonium or sodium thiosulphate solution may well last indefinitely isn't helpful once you start using them as fixer. Not much sulphite is needed, but without it, it won't last in use.
 

Rudeofus

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Do I have this right? it's just the compounded rapid fixers (with sulfite, etc.) that will go bad with time, but a simple 60% solution of ammonium thiosulfate will last indefinitely?

Ammonium Thiosulfate is stable for two reasons: it is an extremely concentrated liquid (think 600g Ammonium Thiosulfate in 400g water), there is no way an Oxygen atom finds its way into such a brine. Secondly it is alkaline, even if some Ammonium Thiosulfate will eventually oxidize, pH stays somewhere between 6 and 8.

If you look at commercial rapid fixer concentrates, there are basically two types available today: neutral rapid fixers, sometimes called "odo(u)rless", and there are slightly acidic rapid fixers typically operating around pH 5.1-5.5. It's these slightly acidic fixer concentrates, which reliably sulfur out after a few months, while the neutral fixers seem to live indefinitely.
 

Mr Bill

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If the resulting liquid is acidic, Sulfur Dioxide will form and leave the solution (c.f. smell of rotten eggs).

Actually SO2 is a choking sort of odor - I describe it as making you want to cough, but if you do the cough is not satisfying. The rotten egg odor is hydrogen sulfide.

It has been described in scientific literature, though, e.g. The Stability of Concentrated Thiosulphate Solutions at High Temperature. Part II: The Loss of Sulphite, by E. R. Brumpton and G. I. P. Levenson, in The Journal of Photographic Science, vol 13, p 79ff. The attached graph shows this effect including the increase in thiosulfate concentration during fixer decay.

I've done that same sort of analysis (minus the sulfate) hundreds and hundreds of times, although mostly on paper blix. But still, I've done studies during electrolytic desilvering of C-41 fixer, watching the sulfite concentration go down (it's "consumed" at the anode). I'm accustomed to seeing the thiosulfate level stay almost constant throughout the process. It's curious to me that it actually increased during the test. I was wondering, what on earth are they testing? It's not the 58-60% ammonium thiosulfate cuz that doesn't contain any appreciable sulfite. But it has a thiosulfate level way higher than a fixer solution, and a similarly high sulfite concentration. So it occurs to me that perhaps this test was of a rapid fixer concentrate - the sort of thing that a photographer might purchase, and the high temperature, whatever it was, was intended to simulate accelerated aging. So I wonder if the increase in thiosulfate was an artifact of the concentrated mix or high temperature.

Again, I've never seen thiosulfate levels change appreciably - as it degrades it is essentially regenerated by sulfite. However, I haven't specifically studied stagnant fixer - I've done this as part of controlling and improving processes for a large finishing operation; we never just let fixer sit around unused. We replenished everything and when volume went down, well, you just mix less replenisher. But... It's been pretty clear that our fixer never went bad when it had adequate sulfite levels. I can only think of a time or two when we had fixer sulfurize, and that's when someone had somehow screwed up and left a "small" tank isolated for months. One might say that, well, you never had fixer get old. And that's somewhat true for C-41 (it can't be regenerated, at least not easily). But with paper blix, it was constantly regenerated at a high reuse level, so it's likely that some of the thiosulfate molecules, or at least parts of them, had been in there for years. But that fixer, in the blix, never "came apart."

Ps, I would concur with Rudi that the preferred way to raise pH of an ammonium thiosulfate fixer is with ammonium hydroxide. But I wouldn't worry too much about moderate quantities of sodium hydroxide either. After all, the normal method of getting sulfite ion is with sodium sulfite, so there is already some sodium ion in there. As far as I know this is not especially problematic.

Btw, both of those chemicals need to be handled with care, and I mean that the user needs to have appropriate protection AND know what they're gonna do in case of a spill. But the ammonium hydroxide is, imo, far more of an irritant. If you were to spill, say a full gallon in your darkroom, it would probably drive everyone out of your house. And I don't know how you'd get back in to clean it up unless you had a full-face respirator with ammonia cartridges in it. With just a half-mask respirator your eyes would be so irritated and watering so bad you probably couldn't find your way in. I don't say this often, but I don't think it's something a "regular person" should be handling, except maybe in small quantities.
 
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Rudeofus

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Mr. Bill: the article I quoted uses a highly concentrated fixer at elevated temperatures to show the claimed effect. This is not also not a rapid fixer - it's based on Sodium Thiosulfate. Its concentration is much lower than Ammonium Thiosulfate 60% solution, because we're comparing weight/volume with weight/weight.

Another big difference between this article and your lab setup is pH: color processes typically used pH close to neutral, whereas the effect observed in this article happens slightly above pH 4.0.

PS: I would be deadly afraid of a gallon sized Ammonia spill, but assume, that typical amateur level dark room users do not try to handle such large amounts.
 

Mr Bill

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Mr. Bill: the article I quoted uses a highly concentrated fixer at elevated temperatures to show the claimed effect. This is not also not a rapid fixer - it's based on Sodium Thiosulfate.

Ah.. I see that now on the axis label; my brain must have turned the "Na" into ammonium.

I'm still not sure what they were really studying, though, as the concentrations are awfully high compared to the more common fixer formulations. But it probably doesn't matter much; a formula like that probably isn't relevant to many people.

Another big difference between this article and your lab setup is pH: color processes typically used pH close to neutral, whereas the effect observed in this article happens slightly above pH 4.0.

That's true. But I've worked with other fixer types, too, just never studied them carefully. I don't remember too many specifics - I was just a youngster doing the dirty work as a QC tech, but we ran a Kodak Versamat processor for b&w film as well as a small roller transport machine, a Pakoroll G as I recall, for all the camera work in a "captive" print shop, and a continuous Kodak paper processor with one of those 5 foot diameter chrome drum dryers. Those all ran lower pH fixers, but I don't think any ran as low as 4.0 pH. To me, that's just asking for trouble, but I dunno - maybe there's useful formulations in that range. Fwiw machine processors didn't run the standard chemicals that most photographers were familiar with - there were special machine versions. For example many printers were familiar with Selectol developer; we ran a machine version called Selectomat, as I recall. In the current world I think that Duraflow developer is still available from Kodak. I recall a fairly recent post by user Laser about it's characteristics (as I recall he worked on it, as well as edited the chapter on processing methods in the IS&T "Handbook of Photographic Science & Engineering"). (IS&T is the current name of the former SPSE, who published the journal that Rudi referenced.)

But I digress. What I'm trying to emphasize is that a thiosulfate-based fixer should always have a surplus of sulfite ion in it. I've never seen a fixer come apart as long as it still had spare sulfite. Now, when the pH of fixer gets too low I don't know if anything can save it, but again, I don't have any actual experience. I/we did investigate plenty of things in my job, but they were primarily for the potential benefit of the company, not purely for knowledge. So we never intentionally dropped fixer pH to the point of destruction because this was something that simply was not gonna happen to our fixer. But knowing where sulfite levels are is pertinent, especially during electrolytic desilvering, so this is something we studied.
 

Rudeofus

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What I'm trying to emphasize is that a thiosulfate-based fixer should always have a surplus of sulfite ion in it. I've never seen a fixer come apart as long as it still had spare sulfite.
This is what the chart posted by me clearly shows: sulfite going going going, and as soon as it's gone, the fixer sulfurs out. What this chart also shows: even if you keep Oxygen completely out of your acidic fixer, it will eventually sulfur out. So basically yes, you need sulfite, and as long as the fixer is neutral or alkaline, the sulfite will actually stay in the fixer.

Conclusion: unless you absolutely need to harden your emulsion, ditch these acidic fixers and use neutral ones.
 
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john_s

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...................., and a continuous Kodak paper processor with one of those 5 foot diameter chrome drum dryers.........

That would require an acidic fixer, perhaps with hardener, wouldn't it?
 
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