Increasing dark values to black in print

silvercloud2323 · Feb 21, 2023

hi,

I have some question that i want to clarify for myself.

Lately I made a print and I found out that the darker values are not yet fully black.

Following the rule in 'Print';
"Expose for the highlights and control the shadows with contrast."

The enlarger's settings were: F/5.6 , 8 seconds of 120 Yellow filter ,and 13 seconds 130Magenta.

What should i do to get the dark values black? Since I used the maximum Magenta value on my enlarger, I cannot increase Magenta anymore.
Should I use the Ilford Multigrade below lens filter kit to extra Increase the magenta values. Or should i increase the exposure time i use with the magenta filter for example 16 seconds?

cliveh · Feb 21, 2023

I think you should switch the contrast control off and expose for the highlights and let the shadows take care of themselves. In real life there are shadows into which our eyes can see no detail.

koraks · Feb 21, 2023

silvercloud2323 said:
What should i do to get the dark values black?

Expose the print longer.
If you then lose the highlights into muddy grays at the highest available contrast, this means your negative is too thin.

It's a bit of an x/y problem, perhaps. You're running into a printing problem that's more likely to be associated with negative creation problems.

Nicholas Lindan · Feb 21, 2023

Set your enlarger to maximum magenta. Make NO yellow exposure. You should now find you have too much contrast...

The way you have the head set you are printing at around grade 2 1/2.

Sirius Glass · Feb 21, 2023

Nicholas Lindan said:
Set your enlarger to maximum magenta. Make NO yellow exposure. You should now find you have too much contrast...

The way you have the head set you are printing at around grade 2 1/2.

No, it is much better to use split grade filtering and expose for maximum magenta and maximum yellow and single grades be damned. Single grade is a one size fits all approach and we know that that does not work in the real world many times.

silvercloud2323 · Feb 21, 2023

Nicholas Lindan said:
Set your enlarger to maximum magenta. Make NO yellow exposure. You should now find you have too much contrast...

The way you have the head set you are printing at around grade 2 1/2.

I have set the Magenta value already to its maximum which is 130.

Nicholas Lindan · Feb 21, 2023

Sirius Glass said:
No, it is much better to use split grade filtering and expose for maximum magenta and maximum yellow and single grades be damned. Single grade is a one size fits all approach and we know that that does not work in the real world many times.

You aren't making sense. Equal exposures of yellow and magenta are equivalent to grade 2. A maximum contrast split grade exposure is magenta-only, ditto yellow-only is minimum contrast. Mixtures of the two fall in between.

GregY · Feb 21, 2023

silvercloud2323 said:
I have set the Magenta value already to its maximum which is 130.

If you've set magenta to the maximum value....& the print is too light in the dark values....the solution is to increase the time for that exposure.

Nicholas Lindan · Feb 21, 2023

silvercloud2323 said:
I have set the Magenta value already to its maximum which is 130.

You wrote: "The enlarger's settings were: F/5.6 , 8 seconds of 120 Yellow filter ,and 13 seconds 130Magenta."

Which I take to be a split-grade print of around grade 2. There is a yellow filter exposure there - don't do a separate yellow exposure.

Sirius Glass · Feb 21, 2023

Nicholas Lindan said:
You aren't making sense. Equal exposures of yellow and magenta are equivalent to grade 2. A maximum contrast split grade exposure is magenta-only, ditto yellow-only is minimum contrast. Mixtures of the two fall in between.

No, split grade is not grade 2, it is split grade with the best for magenta and the best for yellow. It does not fall in between the two. Any one grade is too narrow for many subjects. That is why split grade exists and is so widely used.

Sirius Glass · Feb 21, 2023

GregY said:
If you've set magenta to the maximum value....& the print is too light in the dark values....the solution is to increase the time for that exposure.

Correct. Increase the magenta time.

Pieter12 · Feb 21, 2023

1. Burn the shadows with the magenta.
2. Try split-grade printing.
3. Is your safelight safe?

Sirius Glass · Feb 21, 2023

Nicholas Lindan said:
You wrote: "The enlarger's settings were: F/5.6 , 8 seconds of 120 Yellow filter ,and 13 seconds 130Magenta."

Which I take to be a split-grade print of around grade 2. There is a yellow filter exposure there - don't do a separate yellow exposure.

Erroneous information. It is NOT grade 2.

Nicholas Lindan · Feb 21, 2023

Sirius Glass said:
No, split grade is not grade 2, it is split grade with the best for magenta and the best for yellow. It does not fall in between the two. Any one grade is too narrow for many subjects. That is why split grade exists and is so widely used.

If there is a longer magenta exposure the contrast goes up. If there is a longer yellow exposure the contrast goes down. If there are equal exposures of magenta and yellow the contrast is in the middle. Any yellow exposure will reduce the contrast (and, of course, darken the print). To increase the exposure reduce or eliminate the yellow exposure. The magenta exposure will need to be increased to compensate, of course.

Split grade printing is a simple technique with more woo-woo surrounding it than any darkroom topic outside of staining developers.

* * *

From Merriam-Webster:

One man's woo-woo, of course, is another's deeply held belief system.

—Julia Moskin

GregY · Feb 21, 2023

Silvercloud, another thing to consider is that the dark values are thin on the negative, and the highlight values are dense on the negative. Theoretically then it should be easy to get the dark values where you want them. I often have landscape negatives that need a lot more exposure time to get the sky & cloud highlights right....by way of burning in or covering the lower part of the negative completely....

Sirius Glass · Feb 21, 2023

Nicholas Lindan said:
If there is a longer magenta exposure the contrast goes up. If there is a longer yellow exposure the contrast goes down. If there are equal exposures of magenta and yellow the contrast is in the middle. Any yellow exposure will reduce the contrast (and, of course, darken the print). To increase the exposure reduce or eliminate the yellow exposure. The magenta exposure will need to be increased to compensate, of course.

Split grade printing is a simple technique with more woo-woo surrounding it than any darkroom topic outside of staining developers.

* * *

From Merriam-Webster:

One man's woo-woo, of course, is another's deeply held belief system.
—Julia Moskin

Again you are wrong about ending up in the middle. With split grade printing the two are separate and the yellow will not reduce the overall contrast, on darken the high lights. It one were to compare a split grade print to a grade 2 or 2.5 print, then one would see there is a great difference, hence the interest in split grade printing.

Now stop with the insults.

Nicholas Lindan · Feb 21, 2023

Sirius Glass said:
Now stop with the insults.

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Nicholas Lindan · Feb 21, 2023

For reference:

How variable contrast paper works:

http://www.darkroomautomation.com/support/appnotevcworkings.pdf

Split grade printing with a lot of general information on its hows and whys:

http://www.darkroomautomation.com/support/appnotesgmeasured.pdf

Sirius Glass · Feb 21, 2023

Nicholas Lindan said:
...

Split grade printing is a simple technique with more woo-woo surrounding it than any darkroom topic outside of staining developers.

* * *

From Merriam-Webster:

One man's woo-woo, of course, is another's deeply held belief system.
—Julia Moskin

Sirius Glass said:
Again you are wrong about ending up in the middle. With split grade printing the two are separate and the yellow will not reduce the overall contrast, on darken the high lights. It one were to compare a split grade print to a grade 2 or 2.5 print, then one would see there is a great difference, hence the interest in split grade printing.

Now stop with the insults.

Nicholas Lindan said:
??????????????????????????????

Is that clear enough?

silvercloud2323 · Feb 21, 2023

Sirius Glass said:
Correct. Increase the magenta time.

Hi Sirius,

If I increase the magenta time, will it also have an effect on the look of the highlights as well?

Pieter12 · Feb 21, 2023

silvercloud2323 said:
Hi Sirius,

If I increase the magenta time, will it also have an effect on the look of the highlights as well?

No it won’t. If you are concerned, just burn the areas you want black with the full magenta filtration.

pentaxuser · Feb 21, 2023

On the matter of split grade printing which was a thread's worth quite recently, wasn't there agreement that there is nothing in a "straight" split grade that cannot be replicated by the right grade which is achieved by small adjustments possible with Y or M?

By " straight" I am referring to a split grade that does not involve any dodging and burning at separate grades. The advantage of split grade is that dodging and burning is possible at the 2 grades used?

pentaxuser

Sirius Glass · Feb 21, 2023

silvercloud2323 said:
Hi Sirius,

If I increase the magenta time, will it also have an effect on the look of the highlights as well?

No, that is the beauty of split grade printing.

revdoc · Feb 21, 2023

silvercloud2323 said:
What should i do to get the dark values black? Since I used the maximum Magenta value on my enlarger, I cannot increase Magenta anymore.
Should I use the Ilford Multigrade below lens filter kit to extra Increase the magenta values. Or should i increase the exposure time i use with the magenta filter for example 16 seconds?

How long are you developing your prints? Over the years I've found that recommended development times seem to fall a little short when it comes to getting the deepest black the paper can produce. I usually develop for about twice the recommended time, and the blacks are better.

Sirius Glass · Feb 21, 2023

revdoc said:
How long are you developing your prints? Over the years I've found that recommended development times seem to fall a little short when it comes to getting the deepest black the paper can produce. I usually develop for about twice the recommended time, and the blacks are better.

I standardized the development time to 2 minutes with Dektol to eliminate variations in development time and adjust the aperture or exposure time or both to darken the blacks.

Increasing dark values to black in print

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