Incident vs Reflected light in sun

[Pieter12]

As I recall, incident meters and readings were developed for directors of photography for movies in order to maintain consistency from shot to shot, with uniform film processing. It is a reliable method of determining exposure for most situations, but there are times when photographer is unable to place meter in same light as subject. Then a reflective or spot meter is useful.
No matter which method...incident, reflective, or cardboard calculator...a human brain must be engaged.
My meter collection contains an model of an early Hollywood meter, but having a Biden right now and name skips my mind. The Sekonic selenium incident meters were based on these meters.

Would that be a Spectra? That seems to be what all the DPs use that I have noticed.

 

[BrianShaw]

… and the Brockway Norwood Director.

geek out on this:
http://dougkerr.net/Pumpkin/articles/Norwood_Director_meters.pdf

 

[runswithsizzers]

No, never. PERIOD! The dome is aimed toward the subject from the position of the camera; that is the dome points the same way the lens does, not towards the lens. The concept is to get the same light as the subject. Take a look at the manuals, they are all consistent.

Both of the light meter manuals I have say this: for incident readings, the dome is aimed at the camera, from the position of the subject.
From the owner's manual for my Gossen Lunalite:

From the manual for my Sekonic L-308s:

 

[Pieter12]

… and the Brockway Norwood Director.

geek out on this:
http://dougkerr.net/Pumpkin/articles/Norwood_Director_meters.pdf

A bit confusing, it seems the Spectra is the Norwood director under a new name, but somehow Sekonic had the rights to the Norwood name for a while. I think the Spectra is the most current model, still being used by DPs. http://www.spectracine.com

 

[Pieter12]

No, never. PERIOD! The dome is aimed toward the subject from the position of the camera; that is the dome points the same way the lens does, not towards the lens. The concept is to get the same light as the subject. Take a look at the manuals, they are all consistent.

That would mean the incident meter would bu used exactly as a reflected meter. What would the point be of having different meters? Incident is measure at the subject, dome pointing toward the camera. reflected, at the camera position, pointed toward the subject. Sometimes, when using multiple artificial lights you can point the incident dome at the individual light source from the subject position to measure lighting ratios.

 

[DREW WILEY]

I only use a reflective one degree spotmeter for everything (the Pentax digital one). Contrary to a previous post, it's the ONLY way one can accurately meter distinctions of black within black or white within white. Any incident meter doesn't even see such distinctions, but just the general light falling on the whole scene - perhaps fine for a studio where lighting can and be artificially controlled and balanced. But the outdoor world often involves extremes, like in my case resolving the specular highlight sparkle of individual ice crystals on a snowfield in bright sunlight, when needing to capture the distinction between deep pits of shadow in volcanic rock from the lesser black of that rock itself, all in the same scene. But whatever metering method you choose, sheer familiarity with analogous conditions and specific films is needed, as well as being cognizant of the potential effect of flare in your meter lens, just like in your camera lens itself.

 

[Chan Tran]

No, never. PERIOD! The dome is aimed toward the subject from the position of the camera; that is the dome points the same way the lens does, not towards the lens. The concept is to get the same light as the subject. Take a look at the manuals, they are all consistent.

You must be kidding.

 

[Arthurwg]

Fortunately you are shooting with Hasselblads so you can get perfectly exposed negatives even if you are metering incorrectly.

Some truth to that. I use the meter prism on my Hasselblad and usually get a pretty good exposure.

 

[Paul Howell]

No, never. PERIOD! The dome is aimed toward the subject from the position of the camera; that is the dome points the same way the lens does, not towards the lens. The concept is to get the same light as the subject. Take a look at the manuals, they are all consistent.

When I get around to building my time machine I'll make it a point to go back to 1970 and tell my Air Force tech school instructor that he's full of shit, I guess I then drop back a few more years and tell my Photo Prof in college the same thing.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Fortunately you are shooting with Hasselblads so you can get perfectly exposed negatives even if you are metering incorrectly.

Yes, life with Hasselblads is tough but someone has to live that life.

 

[BrianShaw]

Yes, life with Hasselblads is tough but someone has to live that life.

I live that life also, and my incident light meter gets pointed from subject (or representative light) to camera. LOL

 

[faberryman]

No, never. PERIOD! The dome is aimed toward the subject from the position of the camera; that is the dome points the same way the lens does, not towards the lens. The concept is to get the same light as the subject. Take a look at the manuals, they are all consistent.

When I get around to building my time machine I'll make it a point to go back to 1970 and tell my Air Force tech school instructor that he's full of shit, I guess I then drop back a few more years and tell my Photo Prof in college the same thing.

I am finding it hard to get my head around there being so much confusion on the issue. I guess if using an incident meter like that for the past 50 years has worked out well for you, I wouldn't change a thing. I would caution any new film enthusiasts reading this thread to read their user manual before adopting one approach or the other.

 

[Pieter12]

I am finding it hard to get my head around there being so much confusion on the issue. I guess if using an incident meter like that for the past 50 years has worked out well for you, I wouldn't change a thing. I would caution any new film enthusiasts reading this thread to read their user manual before adopting one approach or the other.

Maybe first try to understand the difference between the terms incident light and reflected light.

 

[Paul Howell]

Not to say that over the years I've know pretty good photographers who did the 180 and used an incident meter as a reflective meter. I just experimented, using my Gossen Luna-Lux with the dome facing the camera, with back to the subject at ISO 100 1/250 at F8, with dome facing the subject and back to the camera 1/250 at F4, reflective reading 1/250 at F11 which matches sunny 16. I guess if you test your film speed using a incident meter facing the subject you could find a E.I that will work?

 

[BrianShaw]

… but why???

I could drive my car from LA to Chicago in reverse… but why?

 

[faberryman]

Maybe first try to understand the difference between the terms incident light and reflected light.

I think it is easier just to look at the cartoon stick figures in the user manual demonstrating the proper technique. And use a Hasselblad just to be safe.

 

[wiltw]

No, never. PERIOD! The dome is aimed toward the subject from the position of the camera; that is the dome points the same way the lens does, not towards the lens. The concept is to get the same light as the subject. Take a look at the manuals, they are all consistent.

Sekonic and Minolta agree with ME on the point of contention!
Incident dome at subject position, aimed toward the camera position


From Sekonic user manual:

From Minolta user manual:

 

[MattKing]

There is a decent chance that Sirius' non-incident incident metering method would yield readings that would be sort of similar to the proper method, with perhaps some extra exposure in a few cases.
So if he is using negative film, perhaps he is happy, and was at the vanguard of the "pastel colours through over-exposure" movement.

 

[Mike Lopez]

No, never. PERIOD! The dome is aimed toward the subject from the position of the camera; that is the dome points the same way the lens does, not towards the lens. The concept is to get the same light as the subject. Take a look at the manuals, they are all consistent.

Incorrect.

 

[wiltw]

There is a decent chance that Sirius' non-incident incident metering method would yield readings that would be sort of similar to the proper method, with perhaps some extra exposure in a few cases.
So if he is using negative film, perhaps he is happy, and was at the vanguard of the "pastel colours through over-exposure" movement.

Perhaps, but not likely, based upon this observation just made...
I just took my incident meter outside in bright sun at 3:20pm, about Latitude 38N degrees. Sun is positioned approx 45 degrees up from horizon, at magnetic 240 degrees SW....

The hemisphere is completely shaded facing 240 degrees, and I took a reading at that bearing, and stored that as the 'zero' measurement. I then rotated myself clockwise and monitored the meter deviation from the 'zero' angle (240SW)...the meter reached a high point of +3.2EV when facing in the range of 20N-70E degrees (and 0EV when facing 240SW)​

So if we followed Sirius' suggestion,( the camera was at 45NE and subject was at 240SW) and we put the meter at camera position with hemisphere facing the subject and used that reading, the result would be an underexposed shot by -3.2EV, whereas if we ignored that suggestion and put the meter at subject position and aimed at the lens, the shaded subject's face would be perfectly exposed.

 

[Chan Tran]

There is a decent chance that Sirius' non-incident incident metering method would yield readings that would be sort of similar to the proper method, with perhaps some extra exposure in a few cases.
So if he is using negative film, perhaps he is happy, and was at the vanguard of the "pastel colours through over-exposure" movement.

He must be kidding as I don't think he doesn't know the right way of using the incident meter. Using the meter in his way would result in overexposure when the subject is front lighted and underexposure when the subject is backlighted.

 

[DREW WILEY]

What is a Hassle-Bland? Wasn't that for squares? And what does it have to do with metering? Is there a coin slot on the side like a parking meter?

 

[faberryman]

What is a Hassle-Bland? Wasn't that for squares? And what does it have to do with metering? Is there a coin slot on the side like a parking meter?

It is a Hasselblad. It is more like a $20 bill slot.

 

[Pieter12]

It is a Hasselblad. It is more like a $20 bill slot.

Credit card reader.

 

[BrianShaw]

It’s either a full moon or April Fool’s Day around here today!