"Meter the bit lit by the strongest light, and the error will indeed be in the shadows."
[...] What doesn't makes sense to me is that you could take a reading in sunshine and there would be any change in the highlights. [...]
I don't think so. It's pretty basic stuff. [...]
Like I said, pretty basic stuff.
I don't think so. It's pretty basic stuff. Now I have done this and verified for myself with my incident meter and it is true. What I have been saying is simply fact----basic incident metering facts.
It indeed is.
It shows how you need to make decisions how to use a meter to get the result you want.
This the essence of what I have been trying to contribute in this thread to the OP. The OP states:
"I am in a position where I need a meter to use with an unmetered camera and it seems that most affordable hand held meters are incident meters. So, what does the reading tell you? Does it simply tell you what exposure is needed for a middle gray based on the falling light?
Several posts answered his question, but I feel they did not adequately describe the pitfalls of incident metering.
What i too think is misleading is the repeated assertion that it is an incident light metering thing.
It is not.
I'm sorry, I guess I am just dense enough to not grasp what you mean by this. I apologise for that, but it's not important enough to drag this thread out any further. I hope the OP feels he's gotten some good info from all.
Chuck
This the essence of what I have been trying to contribute in this thread to the OP. The OP states:
"I am in a position where I need a meter to use with an unmetered camera and it seems that most affordable hand held meters are incident meters. So, what does the reading tell you? Does it simply tell you what exposure is needed for a middle gray based on the falling light?
Several posts answered his question, but I feel they did not adequately describe the pitfalls of incident metering.
I'm sorry, I guess I am just dense enough to not grasp what you mean by this. I apologise for that, but it's not important enough to drag this thread out any further. I hope the OP feels he's gotten some good info from all.
Chuck
I'm sorry, I guess I am just dense enough to not grasp what you mean by this. I apologise for that, but it's not important enough to drag this thread out any further.
CPorter,
The images you posted (#71) speak volumes; with your permission I would copy and save these on my computer for future reference.
Ted
A light meter, or exposure meter, is a device used to measure the amount of light in an environment. Light meters are most commonly used by photographers.
I've used the Duplex method of incidental metering for many years where you point the meter at the main light (or the Sun outdoors) and then from the subject to the camera in the normal way and set the lens at half way between the two readings to average them, I've been using this method since I read it in Dunn and Wakefield s book "Exposure Manual" way back in the 1950s both with slides and neg film and it's practically infallible in any light, front, ,back or sidelight. Try it it works2F/2F is working his way around the backlighting objection by saying (rather obliquely) that the light source isn't the backlight anymore in that situation, but the light source is whatever is causing fill on the side away from the backlight. This is a rather awkward and confusing way to state the case, especially when read by a beginning photographer. 2F/2F is also recommending a method for the studio which is more often used to determine lighting ratios, and is rather more suited to a flat incident plate rather than a hemispherical dome receptor on the meter.
I have seen one book that recommends splitting the difference between two readings in a sidelit situation, one reading aimed at the camera and one at the light source. All others I've seen, including meter instructions from Gossen, Minolta, Sekonic, and from Ansel Adams, Phil Davis (his Incident Reading Zone System), and many others indicate that the hemisphere should be in the same light as the subject, pointed in the direction from the subject to the camera.
In the end, a hemispherical receptor incident meter is specifically designed to be used in the same light as the subject, pointed in the same direction as from the subject to the camera. The reason for the hemispherical dome is to get a decent reading of the the light falling on a 3D subject that will be reflected toward the camera. As you gain experience, you might decide to finesse that reading a bit, but it's the place to start, and to stay until you become smarter than your meter.
I never saw anyone in the dozens of studios I worked in use a hemispherical incident dome pointed directly at the light source as a final exposure reading unless the light source was in line with the camera or they were trying to underexpose the shadow side of an object. The meter was pointed with the dome toward the camera.
Lee
Not in all cases. I've been using incident and reflected light meters for over 40 years, and I've used the duplex incident method. I'd never use duplex incident for a directly backlit very dark-skinned soccer player facing me in the harsh midday sun. Turning my back to the sun, hunching over the meter and taking a reading with the meter at my chest, pointed away from the sun (same as "from subject toward camera" orientation) works perfectly for that.I've used the Duplex method of incidental metering for many years where you point the meter at the main light (or the Sun outdoors) and then from the subject to the camera in the normal way and set the lens at half way between the two readings to average them, I've been using this method since I read it in Dunn and Wakefield s book "Exposure Manual" way back in the 1950s both with slides and neg film and it's practically infallible in any light, front, ,back or sidelight. Try it it works
Where i find things tricky is when the subject is partially in shade, partially in the light. With an incident meter only what do you in this case?
I disagree. The way I was trained, it works from the subject pointed toward the light. You point the meter at the main light source that is illuminating the part of the composition for which you would like to expose. This is not always at the camera. Where the camera is has no effect on what light is falling on the subject. In the studio, you point the meter at the main light from where the subject is. You then measure the other lights and other areas of the composition in relation to the main light to find the lighting ratios/relationships, and hence figure out what your picture will look like. Outside on a clear day, when the sun is directly illuminating the entire composition, you point your meter at the sun. In a scene in which indirect (reflected or diffused) light is providing the illumination (backlit, overcast/hazy, shade, etc.), then you just hold the meter where the subject is, perpendicular to the ground. (This is the "at the camera" method.) The whole point of incident meters is to measure the light coming from the light source and hitting the subject, not the light coming from the camera, so point it at the light source. While the "at the camera" method will work fine in many situations (specifically, those in which the main light source is effectively coming from the same direction as the camera), it is really just a rule of thumb, and does not make one understand what they are doing by measuring incident light, and in the studio, does not give one control over lighting ratios.
To make this statement a little more precise: The dome on an incident light meter copies the bahavior of a diffuse reflector. Any point of your (diffusely reflecting) motive gets lit from the half space around it on the exterior and reflects all that light into that same half space, which also includes your camera lens. The result: a diffuse reflector is rendered medium gray in your pic if and only if it was indeed medium gray.account the lit and the shaded sides from whatever (all and any) sources in order to provide a mid-range (medium grey) reading for the whole subject.
I agree with most of what you write Lee, I only tend to use the use the Duplex method in back lighting with a late model Weston light meter and the invercone which was the method that Dunn and Wakefield devised the method with because the invercone is unique in that it's bigger than the meter body and allows the light to back leak, but for most circumstances a straight incidental reading pointing the dome from the subject towards the camera with any meter I find produces a very high proportion of correct exposures except with the examples you quote when the needs adjusting to compensate for it's none standard nature by a half to one stop up or down depending on if the subject is exceptionally light or dark.Not in all cases. I've been using incident and reflected light meters for over 40 years, and I've used the duplex incident method. I'd never use duplex incident for a directly backlit very dark-skinned soccer player facing me in the harsh midday sun. Turning my back to the sun, hunching over the meter and taking a reading with the meter at my chest, pointed away from the sun (same as "from subject toward camera" orientation) works perfectly for that.
I have used duplex incident for a backlit white flower with thin petals and slide film. It works well for that, keeping the backlit white petals just within the dynamic range of the slide film.
But the quoted post of mine was about advice to beginners on standard incident meter use, not about advanced use in special circumstances. I'd still maintain that standard incident method is sufficiently accurate that the duplex method isn't often warranted, especially with current negative films. I'd also maintain that I'd lose shadow detail at my tested film speeds under many circumstances with the duplex method. But then you and I might have different preferences where shadow detail is concerned. All in all, I'd prefer Phil Davis' methods to duplex incident readings.
Lee
2F/2F;912911 If I had to use only one meter said:Absolutely right. The incident meter measures the intensity of the incident light, and therefore the intensity of the diffuse reflected light from a highlight (or the 100% reflected diffuse highlight). With constant development procedures, it will give you a consistent density for the highlights. In other words: it is an absolute measurement and it will give you consistent negative quality. The reference point is therefore at the high lights. But it is simply linked to middle gray, because the difference is 2,3 stops.
I use a spotmeter as well, but for analysis purposes only. Not for setting the exposure values.
Jed
I agree Jed, Incidental is magic, I find since I shoot a lot of slide film in 35mm and 120 for projection incidental metering gives them all the same density, so that you don't go from a very dark image to a very bright one on the screen which can be very disconcerting for the viewer.Absolutely right. The incident meter measures the intensity of the incident light, and therefore the intensity of the diffuse reflected light from a highlight (or the 100% reflected diffuse highlight). With constant development procedures, it will give you a consistent density for the highlights. In other words: it is an absolute measurement and it will give you consistent negative quality. The reference point is therefore at the high lights. But it is simply linked to middle gray, because the difference is 2,3 stops.
I use a spotmeter as well, but for analysis purposes only. Not for setting the exposure values.
Jed
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