In The American West

[Arthurwg]

Richard Avedon, by Irving Penn

What a great portrait. I'd say that part of the story is revealed in this picture. He's obviously hiding, obviously scared. And I believe he envied Penn's happy marriage, something he could not have himself. Penn proved that you don't have to be deeply neurotic and unhappy to be an artistic genius.

 

[Pieter12]

What a great portrait. I'd say that part of the story is revealed in this picture. He's obviously hiding, obviously scared. And I believe he envied Penn's happy marriage, something he could not have himself. Penn proved that you don't have to be deeply neurotic and unhappy to be an artistic genius.

In Norma Stevens' Something Personal, Avedon is described as spending the better part of an hour studying himself in the mirror, making faces and rehearsing poses for this picture. The photo shows Avedon as he wanted to be portrayed, he intended it to be a parody of a Penn portrait. Penn was apparently nervous and physically upset during the shoot.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Alan - I double checked on Google Earth. That aerial shot does indeed look like the Mt Taylor area southwest of Albuquerque in New Mexico. It's actually in south central NM. Mt Taylor is an extinct volcano over 11,000 ft high, so winter snow would be typical. The long straight lava flow to its south is a Natl Monument.

That would make sense. The Rockies of NM. Tks.

 

[pamphoto]

I went to the Amon Carter second Thursday event they hosted this past Thursday. The theme of which was centered around the Avendon exhibit, complete with a talk from Laura Wilson.
Here are a couple pictures.

 

[AnselMortensen]

Richard Avedon, by Irving Penn

Not enough detail in the shadows.
Obviously he should have done Stand Development in Caffenol...and used stop bath.

 

[Dave Lusby]

Alan, FYI, Mt. Taylor isn't part of the Rockies, which are defined by their geologic history and end with the Sangre de Christo range. Rather, it is part of the equally fascinating Quaternary geologic province of western New Mexico, full of photographic opportunities. The Malpais comes to mind, the Jemez mountains, and lots of Native history. Visit, and bring your (film) camera!

 

[Pieter12]

Richard Avedon’s Rugged American West Comes to Paris

Avedon was renowned for his fashion photography, but in the 1970s he made indelible images of coal miners, cotton farmers, and cowboys.

aperture.org

 

[RalphLambrecht]

You surely must be kidding.

no, I'm quite serious. At the very end of the 20th century, Detroit was a battlefield. It may be better now.

 

[Carnie Bob]

The back story of Avedon's fantastic project is amazing, apparently he took 17000 8 x 10 negative exposures and edited down to the approx 124 images, - I process 8 x 10 quite a bit in spurts and can tell you that is a huge number.

Avedon and Penn were friends and had apartments on the same floor in the building owned by Vogue Mag.

My absolute favourite vacation spot in USA is Texas , love the state not so big on BBq these days but I have travelled there on a few occasions and enjoyed myself immensely.

 

[Arthurwg]

My absolute favourite vacation spot in USA is Texas , love the state not so big on BBq these days but I have travelled there on a few occasions and enjoyed myself immensely.

Please tell us where you go and what you find interesting.

 

[Carnie Bob]

Please tell us where you go and what you find interesting.

Well Austin for one, music, good food, San Antonio is amazing you can take a boat trip through the canals, Houston well it has the annual photofest that is amazing as well you can go to the ball park and have a beer and watch Jose Altuve play ball. hows's that for starters.
not to mention sunsets at the Oasis, real cowboy dancing at a good dance hall, and maybe visit a ranch and hunker down for some good times.
I must also mention some of the friendliest people to meet.

 

[DREW WILEY]

17,000 shots for 124 final keepers - that's a dismal success rate! Imagine what that would could in 8x10 film today, plus his overhead in assistants, travel expenses, and a certain number of actually paid models.

 

[Pieter12]

17,000 shots for 124 final keepers - that's a dismal success rate! Imagine what that would could in 8x10 film today, plus his overhead in assistants, travel expenses, and a certain number of actually paid models.

Do you have a source for paid models in the book or otherwise? And compared to Robert Frank’s 27,000 shots for 83 finals, it does not seem that bad.

 

[jeffreyg]

I have a son and his family that live in Houston and visit them every year. There are many things to do there. The zoo is really first class. There are a number of museums, the space center and a flight museum. The Central Market which although a super market is worth a visit. Kenny and Ziggy’s deli restaurant. If the state fair happens while you are there it’s worth a visit. Not too far from Galveston Beach.
There are many photography opportunities since we are there visiting family my photography is usually very limited.
If you are adventurous and don’t mind a long drive, Big Bend National Park is definitely worth while. It’s one of the least light polluted spots in the US. Like being in a planetarium and a good spot for seeing the Milky Way and doing astrophotography.
Stop at a Buc-ees convenience/gas station.
(I have no affiliation with any chamber of commerce )

 

[DREW WILEY]

Pieter - at least Robert Frank was burning 35mm film, not 8x10. I've never admired machine-gunners; yet we need them more than ever just to keep up the demand for more film manufacture. Yeah, the life's work of most significant photographers can be reduced down to just a few truly iconic images; but at what point is this just nervous energy hoping to get lucky. The artistic element appears in the editing
afterwards.

In terms of importing models, the bee keeper was an infamous example. It's an interesting book, but so saturated with pretense and Avedon's personal advertising ethos, that it tells us way more about him than the "West". And I don't count Texas as being part of the West; but I guess to some New Yorkers, with their myopia of cultural self-importance, anything west of their own city limits is. But no need for me to repeat what I've stated before; different people obviously have different takes of that project - some positive, some skeptical.

 

[Pieter12]

Pieter - at least Robert Frank was burning 35mm film, not 8x10. I've never admired machine-gunners; yet we need them more than ever just to keep up the demand for more film manufacture. Yeah, the life's work of most significant photographers can be reduced down to just a few truly iconic images; but at what point is this just nervous energy hoping to get lucky. The artistic element appears in the editing
afterwards.

In terms of importing models, the bee keeper was an infamous example. It's an interesting book, but so saturated with pretense and Avedon's personal advertising ethos, that it tells us way more about him than the "West". And I don't count Texas as being part of the West; but I guess to some New Yorkers, with their myopia of cultural self-importance, anything west of their own city limits is. But no need for me to repeat what I've stated before; different people obviously have different takes of that project - some positive, some skeptical.

I believe Avedon never meant it to be a document about the west, more of a personal exploration of people he found there. Yes, the beekeeper wass imported, I'm not sure if he was paid. And the photos were taken in 17 states: Arizona, California, Colorado, Idaho, Iowa, Kansas, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Mexico, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Oregon, South Dakota, Texas, Utah, and Wyoming. As far as the 17,000 shots for 124 keepers, of the 752 people that were photographed only 124 made it into the final edit, so the ratio does not reflect what it seems to at first read.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Well, even with those statistics, that's an average of over twenty sheets of film per person - certainly not exceptional for that era of abundant sheet film, but overall, rather staggering in terms of the whole quantity. Calendar and nature photographers could be just as reckless in terms of 4X5 color chrome film consumption. David Muench boasted in how many sheets he could shoot in a single day - nothing to boast in, in my opinion, just a lack of priority. Different era, mighty good for Kodak's bottom line, at least.

 

[Pieter12]

Well, even with those statistics, that's an average of over twenty sheets of film per person - certainly not exceptional for that era of abundant sheet film, but overall, rather staggering in terms of the whole quantity. Calendar and nature photographers could be just as reckless in terms of 4X5 color chrome film consumption. David Muench boasted in how many sheets he could shoot in a single day - nothing to boast in, in my opinion, just a lack of priority. Different era, mighty good for Kodak's bottom line, at least.

It's not landscape or a Sears portrait. A photographer like Avedon would "work" the subjects until he got what he wanted. Plus, I'll bet he didn't have much depth of field with the 8x10 and Tri-X in open shade and was dealing with people who might move around and not end up sharp. That takes film. He could have just as well been shooting medium format if he did not intend to make the prints as large as they are. Weston went through film, too. But mostly because of technical issues--light leaks, vibrations during very long exposures, sometimes just bad film or damaged packaging.

 

[Pieter12]

Not enough detail in the shadows.
Obviously he should have done Stand Development in Caffenol...and used stop bath.

Interestingly enough, I find many of Penn's photographs don't reproduce well. The Small Trades images in the book have little shadow detail, while I recall they looked beautiful in person. I think his fashion work reproduces better because he shot it for that purpose.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Weston had darn little money, Pieter, and couldn't waste much of either film or paper. Whole different mentality. Yeah, shore surf splash etc had its odds. But, except when he had the luxury of grants, EW had to support himself with a conventional one-man portrait studio which hardly inspired him. By contrast, Avedon was a well-heeled fashion and advertising photographer who could afford to be wasteful
and have a retinue of assistants. He also liked to capture offhand lucky postures or unguarded facial expressions - totally different style.
About as different as two photographers could be - one poetically sensitive and contemplative, the other downright brash (and visually obnoxious in my own opinion).

 

[Pieter12]

Weston had darn little money, Pieter, and couldn't waste much of either film or paper. Whole different mentality. Yeah, shore surf splash etc had its odds. But, except when he had the luxury of grants, EW had to support himself with a conventional one-man portrait studio which hardly inspired him. By contrast, Avedon was a well-heeled fashion and advertising photographer who could afford to be wasteful
and have a retinue of assistants. He also liked to capture offhand lucky postures or unguarded facial expressions - totally different style.
About as different as two photographers could be - one poetically sensitive and contemplative, the other downright brash (and visually obnoxious in my own opinion).

Weston lost a lot of film when he was in Mexico according to his daybooks. He did not have much of a studio portrait business there, either. Avedon was funded by the Amon Carter Museum and did not have to worry about film cost. Film was also a billable item for his editorial and commercial work, so he naturally thought nothing of shooting 20 or 30 sheets of 8x10 for a subject.

 

[DREW WILEY]

I'd have to drink 20 or 30 cups of coffee a day to become Avedon; nervous is an understatement. I thought I was wasting film when I allowed myself an average of 1 sheet of 8x10 per week. Now it's about one per month; the rest is more affordable smaller film.

 

[warden]

no, I'm quite serious. At the very end of the 20th century, Detroit was a battlefield. It may be better now.

I guess I missed that, even though I lived in Detroit at that time too. It was a tough city, but no battlefield, and I felt safe there if I behaved myself.

 

[Carnie Bob]

17,000 shots for 124 final keepers - that's a dismal success rate! Imagine what that would could in 8x10 film today, plus his overhead in assistants, travel expenses, and a certain number of actually paid models.

Drew it depends on how one quantifies success in photographic imagery , Yours or Avedon.

 

[koraks]

Drew it depends on how one quantifies success in photographic imagery , Yours or Avedon.

Yup.

All of us here are phenomenal success stories. Each and every one of us was the single fastest swimmer out of ten million. 124 out of 17k sounds pretty efficient by that standard.