In need of advice - Zeiss Ikon Nettar 515/16 - weird behavior of the shutter tension lever...

[Fontinalis]

Hi. I am in need of some advice.

I did loads of analog photography in the eighties, nineties; then said goodbye to my good old Nikon, and went on to own a few digital camera.
But I miss the analog cameras. It is somewhat a more meditative process for me.
In any case, a Zeiss Ikon Nettar 515/16 crossed my path. I was told it was in working condition and paid a reasonnable price for it.
I know about the saying 'buyers beware'. So I paid knowing it could be ok, or not ok.

It is in really good shape, came with case, leaflet from the store it was bought at in Switzerland, sometime between end of 1938 and the end of the WWII.
(I'm working on finding it's more precise provenance, as I find it interesting)

I have tried to educate myself as much as I could on this particular camera, downloading all sorts of manuals, diagrams, watching youtubes, etc.

Finally decided to get serious and checked if things were in order.
I have not loaded films yet.

But what I am finding is that the little lever that is used to 'cock' or 'charge' the shutter behaves weirdly (for lack of better explanation in my current ignorant state LOL).

Normally, once charged, it would stay in that charged position until I press the button to shoot (déclencheur) and would go back to it's 'uncharged' position once that button pressed.
But that is not what it does.

Once 'charged', and before anything else happens (no button pressed), it slowly goes back to its position, as in a countdown for a delayed shot (that is how I interpret this behavior), and once the delay is over, and the lever back in it's 'uncharged' position, the shutter doesn't do its thing.

No matter the position of the delayed action lever that is located at 5h00 oclock (if we look at the camera from the front), the behavior of the 'cocking' mechanism is the same. Which worries me. What's going with that little lever...

The shutter is a late Telma Shutter manufactured by AGC (as it is a model that has 1/125)
This camera doesn't have double exposure prevention.

So, what kind of problem am I dealing with ? Shutter problem ? Delayed action lever problem ?

All advice welcomed!

Thank you,
and sorry if the terms are not all the correct terminology, English is my second language.

 

[Fontinalis]

The camera has no yellow on its dials. It is just a bad reflection from an orange-yellow lampe shade that towers over it when I took the picture.

 

[Kino]

Hello and welcome to Photrio!

Sounds to me like a sticky shutter. The shutter probably needs to be cleaned. Lubricant has probably become very thick and is not allowing all the parts to move freely, so the catch that holds the shutter in tension is probably not falling into place and the lever is returning to its original position.

Being that it is returning slowly, this also suggests that the shutter blades and other internal parts are also suffering from thick lubricants.

Of course, there could be some broken parts in the shutter, but it has been my experience with several dozen vintage mechanical cameras that petrified lubricant is typically the problem.

A shutter cleaning should probably set you back to normal.

 

[Dustin McAmera]

I think the slow return is probably just the delayed-action mech working. It's oddly located by the shutter cocking lever, not by the self-timer lever. See this youtube vid where someone has opened the front and cleaned his Telma shutter:


If you're brave enough to take the front off, you may be able to see something obviously displaced, or if you're lucky, something like dirt obviously blocking it from engaging (that wasn't my first experience of taking a shutter apart: I ended up with a box of parts).

Before opening it up, it's worth checking the whole shutter unit hasn't rotated in its mount, so that the shutter release is kind of accidentally always pressed.

If you decide to open the shutter, you'll need to take the front element off, I think. To do that, unscrew the end-stop screw that stops it focusing beyond the close end; note the distance on the scale where it comes free of the thread, so you can put it back on; and how many rotations it took to unscrew it to that point).

Under the front element, there is probably a retaining ring that holds the front plate of the shutter on. I have a couple of shutters where the front plate is held on by a little rotating D-shaped plate instead.

You can clean most old oils and grease with liquid lighter fuel. Don't use too much, and try to keep it away from the shutter and aperture blades (just because it will take longer to dry out from there). Add it in single drops, and dab it away with something like a cotton bud.

 

[reddesert]

Before opening it up, it's worth checking the whole shutter unit hasn't rotated in its mount, so that the shutter release is kind of accidentally always pressed.

Do check this, and the body release mechanism. Although the slowness may mean everything is sticky inside, sometimes when a leaf shutter cocking lever fails to catch, it is because the release is ever so slightly pressed, preventing the cocking lever from latching.

 

[xtolsniffer]

I have a Nettar with a Telma shutter somewhere, I'll check but I think you're setting the self timer. The actual shutter release is on the bottom of the lens. With a Telma you don't have to charge the shutter, you just push the release and then it's ready to go again.

 

[Fontinalis]

I have a Nettar with a Telma shutter somewhere, I'll check but I think you're setting the self timer. The actual shutter release is on the bottom of the lens. With a Telma you don't have to charge the shutter, you just push the release and then it's ready to go again.

I'm a little confused now. I watched this video, and that is when I saw that there was a step ('cock the shutter'), and my Nettar 515/16 has that same lever.
Zeiss Ikon Nettar 515/16: How to use - Video Manual

Thank you for the input. I have more to explore...

 

[Fontinalis]

Hello and welcome to Photrio!

Sounds to me like a sticky shutter. The shutter probably needs to be cleaned. Lubricant has probably become very thick and is not allowing all the parts to move freely, so the catch that holds the shutter in tension is probably not falling into place and the lever is returning to its original position.

Being that it is returning slowly, this also suggests that the shutter blades and other internal parts are also suffering from thick lubricants.

Of course, there could be some broken parts in the shutter, but it has been my experience with several dozen vintage mechanical cameras that petrified lubricant is typically the problem.

A shutter cleaning should probably set you back to normal.

I will look into that for sure. Maybe not do it myself, but have someone clean it.
Thank you.

 

[Fontinalis]

Do check this, and the body release mechanism. Although the slowness may mean everything is sticky inside, sometimes when a leaf shutter cocking lever fails to catch, it is because the release is ever so slightly pressed, preventing the cocking lever from latching.

That makes sense too. I'm doing a checklist of all those possible issues.
Thank you.

 

[Molli]

I'm a little confused now. I watched this video, and that is when I saw that there was a step ('cock the shutter'), and my Nettar 515/16 has that same lever.
Zeiss Ikon Nettar 515/16: How to use - Video Manual

Thank you for the input. I have more to explore...

You have it right. Your Telma 515/16 has the lever to cock the shutter and another button to trigger it. The 515/2 didn't have a separate step needed to cock the shutter, but it does have a self-timer/delayed timer which I can't see on your 515/16 and it's not mentioned on this page of the different models and their specifications:

Zeiss Ikon Nettar

The Nettar series by Zeiss Ikon was a successful range of folding cameras for 120 roll film. Several types for 6×9cm, 6×6cm and 6×4.5cm format with different lenses and even more different shutters were offered. Year of release: 1934 alternate name: Bob 510 Film Format: 120 roll film (6×4,5cm...

camerapedia.fandom.com

My very simple 510 (the first camera listed above) doesn't have the separate cocking lever, nor the self-timer, nor a PC Sync Port. It still works like a charm, though, but I get very confused when I switch back to cameras that need separate actions to trigger the shutter!

 

[Fontinalis]

You have it right. Your Telma 515/16 has the lever to cock the shutter and another button to trigger it. The 515/2 didn't have a separate step needed to cock the shutter, but it does have a self-timer/delayed timer which I can't see on your 515/16 and it's not mentioned on this page of the different models and their specifications:

Zeiss Ikon Nettar

The Nettar series by Zeiss Ikon was a successful range of folding cameras for 120 roll film. Several types for 6×9cm, 6×6cm and 6×4.5cm format with different lenses and even more different shutters were offered. Year of release: 1934 alternate name: Bob 510 Film Format: 120 roll film (6×4,5cm...

camerapedia.fandom.com

My very simple 510 (the first camera listed above) doesn't have the separate cocking lever, nor the self-timer, nor a PC Sync Port. It still works like a charm, though, but I get very confused when I switch back to cameras that need separate actions to trigger the shutter!

Yes, the 515/16 as a lever to 'cock' (at 11h00) and one for the delayed shot (at 5h00).

Thank you for the link. I'll go look. There has to be a definitive answer to my problem (cleaning, fixing, etc) not that I have the medium format bug!

 

[Dustin McAmera]

Sorry for a shameless plug, but Camerapedia is a burning ruin. The guy who owned the url of that wiki sold it to Wikia in 2011, and most of the people writing for it left in disgust, taking the database with them, and started Camera-wiki, which has since added many more pages; and it is better maintained so has fewer missing pictures etc. So for example, see

Nettar - Camera-wiki.org - The free camera encyclopedia

camera-wiki.org

 

[Molli]

Sorry for a shameless plug, but Camerapedia is a burning ruin. The guy who owned the url of that wiki sold it to Wikia in 2011, and most of the people writing for it left in disgust, taking the database with them, and started Camera-wiki, which has since added many more pages; and it is better maintained so has fewer missing pictures etc. So for example, see

Nettar - Camera-wiki.org - The free camera encyclopedia

camera-wiki.org

I wouldn't consider that a shameless plug, it's incredibly helpful, thank you! I just linked to the first one to pop up with my particular search terms. I'm happy to "educate the algorithm" to give preference and priority to better information, better maintained so, again, you have my thanks!

So, it's http://camera-wiki.org for up-to-date, reliable information about cameras. Bookmarked!