In low light we see only black and white.

Vaughn · Nov 3, 2018

BrianShaw said:
... or anesthesia...

I was in total blackout (underground mine with no light source at all) several times. No grey was noticed but profound experience of shooting colored light flashes.

Dang...I'm taking the wrong drugs! I do not recall seeing colored flashes when in total darkness (lava tubes in NE CA)...or else they did not make an impression on me. I'll have to give it another go next time I photograph over there. It might be due to the significant amount of time I have spent developing sheet film in trays. My brain is attuned to the darkness and may not feel the need to create sights when there are none to see -- except --

I still love that I 'see' my hands while developing film in darkness. I believe muscle positioning tells my brain where my hands are, and my brain does the rest. I can 'see' my hands but not what they may be holding.

BrianShaw · Nov 3, 2018

Vaughn said:
Dang...I'm taking the wrong drugs! I do not recall seeing colored flashes when in total darkness (lava tubes in NE CA)...or else they did not make an impression on me. I'll have to give it another go next time I photograph over there. It might be due to the significant amount of time I have spent developing sheet film in trays. My brain is attuned to the darkness and may not feel the need to create sights when there are none to see -- except --

I still love that I 'see' my hands while developing film in darkness. I believe muscle positioning tells my brain where my hands are, and my brain does the rest. I can 'see' my hands but not what they may be holding.

There may be individual differences, IDK. I was between 3000 and 5200 feet underground. But later I had similar experience when having migraines and retinal detachment.

The brain is a remarkable and mysterious organ.

jtk · Nov 3, 2018

fwiw I

jtk said:
There is no such thing as "blackout" unless perhaps death. In "total darkness" our complex neurological system generates gray, an easily demonstrated reality... obvious in sensory deprivation research...much like system noise in audio. As well, our eyes generate colorful phosphenes, which we usually ignore.

fwiw those comments are based on sensory deprivation research that many (including myself) have done using totally black settings : e.g. a steel room floating on oil with a double freezer-locker-style door. Was not only totally black but was virtually dead sound-wise, except for sounds made by heartbeat and movement.

As to the colored spots of light, those are well known to your opthamologist as well as wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphene

BrianShaw · Nov 3, 2018

jtk said:
fwiw I

fwiw those comments are based on sensory deprivation research that many (including myself) have done using totally black settings : e.g. a steel room floating on oil with a double freezer-locker-style door. Was not only totally black but was virtually dead sound-wise, except for sounds made by heartbeat and movement.

As to the colored spots of light, those are well known to your opthamologist as well as wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphene

Yes they are. (Both).

jtk · Nov 3, 2018

...on the other hand... a B&W (or any contrasty print) might seem to have whiter whites and blacker blacks than we are aware of in our environment....except of course for the muddy stuff that so regularly appears on Media under the guise of "alt" etc,

Perhaps the appeal of B&W prints has to do with their difference from our environments. Perhaps that applies to "snappy" color prints as well.

Vaughn · Nov 3, 2018

BrianShaw said:
There may be individual differences, IDK. I was between 3000 and 5200 feet underground. But later I had similar experience when having migraines and retinal detachment.

The brain is a remarkable and mysterious organ.

The lava tubes tend to be close to the surface, but of course sloped downhill, and one can go quite a ways -- quarter mile or so in some. Hit my head on a drop of lava hanging from the ceiling...saw some stars!

I once heard that "Brain Teasers" should really be called brain failures...LOL!

I hope this is not too muddy for you, jtk -- an alt print of the inside of a lava tube...and B&W in low light, too! (8x10 carbon print)

Berkeley Mike · Nov 3, 2018

Vaughn said:
The lava tubes tend to be close to the surface, but of course sloped downhill, and one can go quite a ways -- quarter mile or so in some. Hit my head on a drop of lava hanging from the ceiling...saw some stars!

I once heard that "Brain Teasers" should really be called brain failures...LOL!

I hope this is not too muddy for you, jtk -- an alt print of the inside of a lava tube...and B&W in low light, too! (8x10 carbon print)

The shot actually gve me the shivers.

Vaughn · Nov 3, 2018

There is permanent ice at the lower level of the lava tube...

jtk · Nov 4, 2018

Vaughn, I rough-camped close to Skull Cave this time of year, 15 years ago. Last night it was probably colder than 20F.

Couldn't help remembering My Lai when the Park Service explained what we did there to the Modoc people, in the volcanic rocks around Skull Cave , relatively recently. I hope we won't have also to remember "Caravan" when we visit there in the future. Maybe someone will inform the WH about Uniform Code of Military Justice.

https://www.theoutbound.com/lake-ta...skull-cave-of-the-lava-beds-national-monument

This video starts slow and is long, but is consistent with the history we know today: https://oregonencyclopedia.org/articles/modoc_war/#.W98dlJNKhdg

By the way, from your often-inspiring posts I'm sure your carbon prints would be nothing like the too-frequently-muddy "alt" stuff we see so regularly in Photrio's "Media."

Vaughn · Nov 4, 2018

I have had some cold nights at Lava Beds, but at least the caves are warmer (and cooler in the very hot summers) -- I always camp just out of the Park (within 1/4 mile) on USFS land if it is just me photographing (in the campground with family).

Captain Jack stood off the army for awhile there in the lava beds. I worked for years in Round Valley (Covelo, CA), the largest reservation in California. Many tribes were driven like cattle in death marches to the reservation there, and other places. We condemn the Japanese for their death marches, but the US did much worse.

I enjoy the more subtle tonality of many alt processes. The computer screen is a terrible method of judging the subtle characteristics of many alt prints...they do tend to go to mud on a screen.

jtk · Nov 4, 2018

I enjoy the more subtle tonality of many alt processes. The computer screen is a terrible method of judging the subtle characteristics of many alt prints...they do tend to go to mud on a screen.[/QUOTE]

Some/many of the alt images on Media might be better in print form...but they are what they are on Photrio.

Photrio Media exhibits final results, pointing to the photographer's vision. It especially tells a truth when mud is what the photographer decides to post repetitively. That's his/her decision, it actually IS (is) his/her photography whether or not he/she accepts that fact..

Some photographers show strong alt stuff on Photrio Media: some demonstrate that they cannot.

I especially like some of the Lith work...it can look a lot like what I used to get with 2475 Recording Film and DK50.

Berkeley Mike · Nov 8, 2018

Why are people afraid of the dark?

Vaughn · Nov 8, 2018

Imagination.

tedr1 · Nov 8, 2018

not everyone is always afraid of the dark, I never experience fear in the darkroom

you probably know most of these already..........

1. most probable cause for some people: training in childhood

2. rational explanations: being diurnal mammals we are not equipped for night-time activity; falling over things; getting lost; loss of face recognition; nocturnal predators

3.?????????

Vaughn · Nov 8, 2018

3...Ghost stories, myths, legends, fairey tales, religious beliefs, urban legends -- cultural influences. (Ties into the imagination part)

MattKing · Nov 8, 2018

People fear what they don't know, what they don't understand and what they cannot see.
Helps explain politics!

Berkeley Mike · Nov 8, 2018

tedr1 said:
not everyone is always afraid of the dark,

...anymore.

Vaughn · Nov 8, 2018

So the question is, when did we become afraid of the dark? Pre or post the rise of agriculture?

Berkeley Mike · Nov 8, 2018

Not really. It is more of an expression of a place in our heads that we deal with dark.

Berkeley Mike · Nov 9, 2018

Our vision is impacted by our sensations, memories and other factors.

Berkeley Mike · Nov 9, 2018

Vaughn said:
Yes and no. Evolution is not so much a matter of a species changing to survive, but instead, of some or many members of a species already have the qualities needed for survival when a need arises. Much less "tooth and claw" than usually assigned evolution. Human color vision might just be a nice thing to have, and not a significant survival characteristic...a by-product of a bigger brain.

It would be interesting to know if they studied the cone/rod make-up of the ice man's eyes (5000 yr old frozen body found in the Swiss Alps). Not that old, though.

This is the beginnings of culture; the shaping of natural behaviors within a group to survive. As to color in higher primates: does color give us even more advantages in discretion, understanding, predicting, surviving in greater numbers, building societies.

Vaughn · Nov 9, 2018

Might not. Seeing in color might have given us little survival advantage early on, or perhaps a ton. There are plus and minuses. We exchanged better night vision for better daylight vision, which shaped us or went in parrallel with us being diurnal instead of nocturnal animals.

What would human cilivilization be like if we had become nocturnal instead? We might be a lot hairier! If we would still have created a cilivilization or not, and what it would be like if we did, can only be guessed at.

My guess is if we were nocturnal, Fifty Shades of Grey would be a story about someone with a seeing disability.

BrianShaw · Nov 9, 2018

At least we can tell if the banana is ripe rather than green whereas our other ape relatives probably have to bite it to tell the difference.

Vaughn · Nov 9, 2018

Nah...feel and smell come into it also. Plenty of men get along quite well in our colorful society being color-blind in various degrees and types. We might be a lot better at shape-reconition without color vision.

BrianShaw · Nov 9, 2018

Vaughn said:
Nah...feel and smell come into it also. Plenty of men get along quite well in our colorful society being color-blind in various degrees and types. We might be a lot better at shape-reconition without color vision.

Not just shape recognition, but other types of “redundancy coding” too.

Your prob very correct about bananas... many people insist on eating them before their prime because they don’t like the appearance of brown spots.

Personally... I love the flavor of a ripe banana but hate the shape and texture.

In low light we see only black and white.

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