In camera positives with BW paper

Rlibersky · Oct 10, 2005

A few years ago I went to a show that had Ilfochrome prints made with a camera obscura. These prints were 16x20 and were about the finest detail I have ever seen.

I've thought that this might be as good in BW as well. I've heard of paper negatives but not paper positives from cameras.

The Ilfochrome is a positive process. what I'm looking for is a reversal developing process for BW papers. Is the possible? Any Ideas out there?

dancqu · Oct 10, 2005

Rlibersky said:
A few years ago I went to a show that had Ilfochrome
prints made with a camera obscura. These prints were 16x20
and were about the finest detail I have ever seen.

I've thought that this might be as good in BW as well. I've
heard of paper negatives but not paper positives from cameras.

The Ilfochrome is a positive process. what I'm looking for is a
reversal developing process for BW papers. Is that possible?
Any Ideas out there?

Sounds very artzy. A, one, positive print from the camera.
One would have to work with it a while but the usual reversal
processes may work. Direct negatives are made using ortho
film using a reversal process. It's my understanding that
paper and ortho emulsions are very similar. Ortho at
best with paper. Dan

Jorge · Oct 10, 2005

Rlibersky said:
A few years ago I went to a show that had Ilfochrome prints made with a camera obscura. These prints were 16x20 and were about the finest detail I have ever seen.

I've thought that this might be as good in BW as well. I've heard of paper negatives but not paper positives from cameras.

The Ilfochrome is a positive process. what I'm looking for is a reversal developing process for BW papers. Is the possible? Any Ideas out there?

There is an article in Unblinkingeye.com called "less is more" that shows you how to make a direct positive from ortho film, I cant see any reason why it would not work with paper.....give it a try and let us know how it worked...

htmlguru4242 · Oct 10, 2005

Black and white film is defeinetely orthocrhomatic (hence the ability to use it under red safelight). I've heard that RC paper is around ISO 4 to ISO 7 when exposed like this, but im my [limited] experience it seems more like ISO 2 or 3.

You should be able to reverse it through direct contact or through a B&W reversal process (develop, stop, bleach, wash, re-expose to diffuse light, develop, stop, fix). I have not tried this, but I've seen it work.

Donald Qualls · Oct 11, 2005

Actually, graded paper is blue-sensitive -- not even enough green sensitivity to call it orthochromatic; it'll give an appearance like the wet plate landscapes of the mid-19th century, with strong atmospheric haze and solid white sky.

VC paper has a roughtly ortho overall curve, but with less contrast in the green and more in blue; that will tend to produce a pretty odd appearance, since there's a lot more green than blue in most scenes; you'll get low contrast trees with high contrast shade, for instance (because the shade is light mainly with blue light scattered from the sky).

Both kinds of paper will record red as black, of course.

You can make direct reversal positives with RA-4 B&W paper by developing first in a common B&W developer, reexposing, and then processing in standard RA-4 chemistry; the process may require a little tweaking to get the right EI and first dev time, but is probably quite a bit simpler than B&W reversal (at the very least, you know the bleach and color dev will do what you want/need). Added advantage: this paper is panchromatic.

glbeas · Oct 11, 2005

Why worry about ortho effects and wierd contrasts. Use Panalure or some other brand of panchromatic paper. Theres formulae for doing reversal on the Unblinking Eye site. Have some fun with it!

Donald Qualls · Oct 15, 2005

If only Panalure weren't being discontinued...

Who makes a panchro paper any more? Anyone?

George Papantoniou · Oct 15, 2005

On B&W Paper reversal (and use in pinholes) there are two threads (one of them is almost empty) here :

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

and on panchromatic B&W paper there is a thread here :

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

That may be helpful...

Rlibersky · Oct 15, 2005

In doing some research on a direct reversal process I came across this little tidbit. Found in the Compact Edition of the Photo Lab Index 1977, Page 376-378.

Super Sped Direct Positive Paper:
An orthochromatic neutral tone emulsion of sufficient speed for camera use from which a positive print is produced by chemical process.

Processing:
It looks like a 5 step process. Develop 1 min.-Bleach 30 sec.-Clear 30 sec. (turn lights on as soon as print is placed in clearing bath)-Redeveloper 60 sec.-Fix 5-10 min wash as usual. It says a 30sec wash must be done in between each chemical, or staining will occur

Formulas:
Developer D-88
Water 125 F 750 ml
Sodium Sulfite, desiccated 45 grams
Hydroquinone 22.5 grams
Boric Acid 5.5 grams
Potassium Bromide 2.5 grams
Sodium Hydroxide 22.5 grams
Water to make 1 liter

Bleaching Bath R-9
Water 1 Liter
Potassium Bichromate 9.5 grams
Sulfuric Acid, concentrated 12 ml

Clearing Bath CB-1
Sodium Sulfite, desiccated 90 grams
Water 1 Liter

Sulfide Redeveloper T-19
Sodium Sulfide, (not Sulfite) 20 grams
Water 1 Liter

Care needs to be taken when mixing the Sodium Hydroxide and the Sulfuric Acid as they may boil the water. Never dump water on to these chemicals dry. Always slowly dump dry chemicals into water.

Well any way, the book doesnt say if this will work with other papers or not. It was developed for the Super Speed paper. It is interesting to know that this has been done. I wonder what the final print looks like?

Donald Qualls · Oct 15, 2005

Looks like a pretty standard reversal process, using a fogging developer for the second dev. No reason it wouldn't work with other papers, though there aren't many true ortho papers. It'd probably also work with ortho lith film and similar, to give BIG film positives...

George Papantoniou · Oct 16, 2005

Thank you for the formulas, indeed it looks like a standard reversal process, I'll try it out ASAP.

Rlibersky said:
Never dump water on to these chemicals dry. Always slowly dump dry chemicals into water.

The Sulphuric Acid is not a solid it's a liquid, but it is surely wise to add the acid to the water, not the water to the acid (ouch !!!)... Should wear acid-resistant gloves, long thick sleeves and mask/googles too...

stormbytes · Oct 23, 2006

I was toying around in my head with trying out the Tintype process and the thought occured to me that it might be possible to make paper positives directly in-camera. Then I stumbled on this thread.

Did anyone actually end up producing a paper positive?

Ohh.. What's "orthochromatic paper" and what's comparable nowadays?

Best,
Daniel

DarkroomExperimente · Dec 16, 2007

I used RA-4 color paper in camera & processed it in E-6....was a bit orange, but looked cool

I also tried RA-4 paper in-camera and processed it using standard BW developer then re-exposed to light followed by normal RA-4 chemicals...looked cool...literally, no matter how much yellow or red filters I used it was always very blue/green....but it was very fun

htmlguru4242 · Dec 17, 2007

Good to see someone try that, DarkroomExperimente. Do you have any of them that you could scan? It'd be neat to see the results!

DarkroomExperimente · Dec 17, 2007

I think I might, although it was 11x14 so I can scan a portion of it...I'll look

unfortunately I gave one of the coolest to the guy I took the pic of...if I was smarter I would've made him a copy

it was a fun method & worthy of more exploration

DarkroomExperimente · Dec 17, 2007

here's one:

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii36/DarkroomExperimenter/ra4reversal-post.jpg

this was 11x14 RA4 paper in a large box with a plastic polaroid lens

the image you see here is cropped..there was a lot more dark space around the image

DarkroomExperimente · Dec 17, 2007

oh yeah...the above image was developed using BW developer, light re-exposure, then standard RA4 process

I only did RA4 in E6 once...not sure where that print is...it was a 6x6cm piece of paper I put in a Mamiyaflex TLR

Photo Engineer · Dec 17, 2007

DarkroomExperimente said:
I used RA-4 color paper in camera & processed it in E-6....was a bit orange, but looked cool

I also tried RA-4 paper in-camera and processed it using standard BW developer then re-exposed to light followed by normal RA-4 chemicals...looked cool...literally, no matter how much yellow or red filters I used it was always very blue/green....but it was very fun

I have published extensive data here and on PhotoNet regarding reversal processing of Endura paper. It can give excellent results. Many people have done it and posted many many examples.

One person was using it in a pinhole camera to make positive images.

PE

DarkroomExperimente · Dec 17, 2007

thanks, I'll look it up

DarkroomExperimente · Dec 17, 2007

Photo Engineer said:
I have published extensive data here and on PhotoNet regarding reversal processing of Endura paper. It can give excellent results. Many people have done it and posted many many examples.

One person was using it in a pinhole camera to make positive images.

PE

I'm reminded of what Abe Lincoln said:

"The internet serves to show a man that his original ideas aren't so new after all"

( slightly updated )

In camera positives with BW paper

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