Importance of proper fixation...grim example.

ic-racer · Jun 7, 2010

I read where Lee Friedlander had about a 4 year gap between processing film and printing. I'm even further behind than that. I shot a lot of film during college and figured when I got a job and did not have to study at night I'd go back and print them.

Well, I'm getting around to some negatives from 1988 and it turns out they are trashed from improper fixation. At the time, as a starving student, I re-used fixer. Looks like the roll in question may have just not been fixed long enough, as there are rolls processed later with the same fixer batch that were OK.

ic-racer · Jun 7, 2010

This picture shows the negatives in question. Just for kicks I re-fixed them, but there was no change. The damage has already been done and is permanent. There is loss of density in the central affected area.

ic-racer · Jun 7, 2010

PVia · Jun 8, 2010

So you're saying you fixed 47 rolls with one liter of fixer? And that was TMax film?

ic-racer · Jun 8, 2010

So, the record book shows roll #154 was processed 4/12/88. The fixer was mixed as one gallon and re-used for 47 rolls (recommended capacity = 120 rolls). I used either a gallon of Kodak sodium thiosulfate powder or Kodafix Rapid ammonium thiosulfate without the hardener, depending on what the local store carried. I didn't indicate which one it was, mixed on 4/10/88 though.

I'm thinking the fixing time was not long enough for the amount of fixer in the tank at the time but its not 100% clear to me.

brucemuir · Jun 8, 2010

wish i had notes...

Marco B · Jun 8, 2010

ic-racer said:
This picture shows the negatives in question. Just for kicks I re-fixed them, but there was no change. The damage has already been done and is permanent. There is loss of density in the central affected area.

To me, this looks more like "silver-mirroring" due to exposure to harmful gasses like sulphurdioxide (SO2) or other oxidative gasses, e.g. peroxides released from fresh paint layers, OR inadequate washing leaving hypo bound silver causing a similar result, instead of improper fixing.

If you had improperly fixed, your clear borders would more likely have fogged up, instead, they are clear.

Silver mirroring can particularly happen in very moist environments. I don't know where you are living?

For some info on silver mirroring:
- Document by James M. Reilly, see page 8 of the PDF

And this very good document by Gawain Weaver:
A Guide to Fiber-Base Gelatin Silver Print Condition and Deterioration

Marco

PVia · Jun 8, 2010

OK, it was one gallon of fixer.

However, as you know, TMax films exhaust your fixer a lot faster than others. I usually count a roll of TMax as 2 or even 3 rolls against my capacity, which I conservatively rate and mark on the bottle of working solution.

I mix Kodafix one liter at a time, capacity approx 30 rolls, and remove it from use after 20 rolls or so.

Ronald Moravec · Jun 8, 2010

I don`t reuse fix on film at all. NEVER excepts for test shots.

Use it up on test prints.

Silver precipitates after 24 hours and sticks to the next film. There seems to be no home method to filter it out. Sterile cotton in a filter funnel is best, but not perfect.

Fred Picker of Zone VI fame said never pour anything back into a bottle. He was correct.

ic-racer · Jun 8, 2010

MarcoB thanks for the tip toward improper washing. I'm going to do a little more research to see if I can recall how I was washing back then. I generally used HCA back then, but I could have run out. I started rotary processing in 1988, and my inversion tank only did 2 rolls of 120 at a time. So, this run was probably an early rotary run. I was using 4 SS reels in a Beseler print drum with no center column. I'm not sure how I washed. If I had just hooked up my Patterson wash hose to the tanks lid, the lack of a center column would have meant the bottom rolls would not get a flow of water.

ic-racer · Jun 8, 2010

"...the non-image areas of prints fixed in exhausted fixer gradually become stained with a yellowish-brown deposit of silver sulfide, the ulitmate product of the decomposition of silver thiosulfates." ---per the link MarkoB presented.

I would interpret this to affect the clear areas of negatives with that deposit. The clear base of this affected film does have what I called a 'stain' on it. I'll have to look at it again to characterize the color.

Ian Grant · Jun 8, 2010

Ronald Moravec said:
I don`t reuse fix on film at all. NEVER excepts for test shots.

Use it up on test prints.

Silver precipitates after 24 hours and sticks to the next film. There seems to be no home method to filter it out. Sterile cotton in a filter funnel is best, but not perfect.

Fred Picker of Zone VI fame said never pour anything back into a bottle. He was correct.

I've always re-used film fixer and even replenished it and in well over 40 years have never had a problem.

Films can tolerate a high level of silver in fixer with no adverse effects.

As the OP says this is most likely a case of under-fixing and theunstable silver thiosulphate complexs then reacting to for this silver veiling. I've seen exactly the same with prinys.

Ian

ic-racer · Jun 8, 2010

Ronald Moravec said:
I don`t reuse fix on film at all. NEVER excepts for test shots.

Use it up on test prints.

Silver precipitates after 24 hours and sticks to the next film. There seems to be no home method to filter it out. Sterile cotton in a filter funnel is best, but not perfect.

Fred Picker of Zone VI fame said never pour anything back into a bottle. He was correct.

I agree. I started one-shot fixer for film in 2000. However, most of my films from the '80s are just fine. In fact, I just printed a negative from 1974 and it was perfectly perserved.

Mainecoonmaniac · Jun 8, 2010

I test my fix with hypo check then toss it when it indicates when it's exhausted. Is this a safe route to fix film and paper?

Sim2 · Jun 8, 2010

*Devil's advocate here*

If fixer was supposed to be used as a one-shot chemical use, either for efficiency, preservation of the film or quality why would the manufacturers give usage stats for more than one film? It would surely be in their interest to promote one-shot as this would move more product.

Yes, using fresh fix everytime must take away any uncertainty of product longevity or capacity but if there was any doubt over the suitability of fix for multi use I think a multi-national would have been strongly behind the principle of one-shot use, which as far as I know was never promoted by the "big three".

clayne · Jun 8, 2010

Ronald Moravec said:
I don`t reuse fix on film at all. NEVER excepts for test shots.

Use it up on test prints.

Silver precipitates after 24 hours and sticks to the next film. There seems to be no home method to filter it out. Sterile cotton in a filter funnel is best, but not perfect.

Fred Picker of Zone VI fame said never pour anything back into a bottle. He was correct.

Nonsense.

Photo Engineer · Jun 8, 2010

Mainecoonmaniac said:
I test my fix with hypo check then toss it when it indicates when it's exhausted. Is this a safe route to fix film and paper?

This test is often unreliable, especially when there is already iodide in the fixer. It is better to test the film or paper for retained silver and retained hypo.

With enough experience, hypo check can be reliable but only when backed up and "learned" through use of the other two tests.

PE

DanielStone · Jun 10, 2010

so is one-shot fixing still the best method for archival negatives? I've been meaning to switch over to a straight Sod. Thiosulfate fix with a some bisulfite as a buffer, single shot. Non-hardening, but much easier to wash...

PE, would this be better? I've always done single-shot with C-41, but with b/w I've somewhat been "all around" in terms of standardizing.... But the big + for me going to a straight thiosulfate fix would be ease of use: I could mix up anywhere from 500ml to 5L or more at a time, and buying a 50lb bag of it from e-bay makes for less waste as well(packaging-wise). And seeing that this would work for b/w papers as well, it could do "double duty".

-Dan

Photo Engineer · Jun 10, 2010

Any fix that works and is not exhausted is ok as long as you test for proper fixing and washing. Remember that a fix can appear to work when exhausted, but the results often show up much later.

PE

George Collier · Jun 10, 2010

Don't know if this is a solution, but I use a 2 stage fixer with films as well as papers - half the time in each. When the first one tests bad with Edwal Hypo Check, I dump it, move the second one to the first one, and make a new second one, just like with paper.
Any reason this wouldn't work?

R gould · Jun 10, 2010

I always reuse my film fixer, and have done so for more years than I care to remember, and have never had problems,I mix 600ml of amfix which will do for ten films, I would say the problem is not washing properly, I use the iIlford method,water 5 inversions,change then ten inversions then twenty,and no problems,Richard

Thomas Bertilsson · Jun 10, 2010

Every time I fix I test the fixer with a film strip. I use Ilford Hypam at 1+4 and if the clearing time of a film strip is longer than 40 seconds I toss it and mix fresh.
I fix for five minutes (Tmax and Acros film), and use my fixer for no more than 40 rolls per 1/2 gallon batch.
My washing sequence starts with an Ilford sequence in the daylight tank (5/10/20 inversions with water change), and then transfer the reels to a dedicated roll film washer where I wash the film under a constant flow of water for ten minutes. Then Sprint wetting agent and hang to dry.
I am well beyond the prescribed limits of capacity from the manufacturer, I test the fixer every time, and I am very careful in washing.

Alternate thought: It would be interesting to have negatives go bad - after they have been printed in a series of say ten prints. Then the negs are intentionally destroyed. I would never have to even think about re-printing negatives, one of the most boring and tedious tasks I know of.

Photo Engineer · Jun 10, 2010

I will repeat this again. HYPO CHECKS USED ON THE FIXER ITSELF ARE NOT RELIABLE. THEY CAN GIVE FALSE POSITIVE OR FALSE NEGATIVE RESULTS! Please please remember this! The best way to test is with a retained silver and a retained hypo test kit. These latter two tests are virtually infallible. Second best is using the film strip test. Thomas has it right above. Basically, when the clearing time doubles, you are near the end or at the end of the lifetime of the fix. (I say doubles because the fix times of fixers varies with film and water supply.)

If you continue to use the KI hypo check solution you will either use the fix too long or throw it away too soon. Besides which, the KI solution does not last forever. It goes bad over about 6 - 12 months. And the test is hard to evaluate. Even a lightly used fix can test positive for exhaustion to a novice who misinterprets the density or even the formation of the cloudy precipitate.

PE

erikg · Jun 10, 2010

Thomas Bertilsson said:
Alternate thought: It would be interesting to have negatives go bad - after they have been printed in a series of say ten prints. Then the negs are intentionally destroyed. I would never have to even think about re-printing negatives, one of the most boring and tedious tasks I know of.

That would be interesting! You'd have to get it right at the start. It would sort of be like the striking of an etching plate, or the grinding of a litho stone: print the edition and then you are done. Thomas Barrow did a thing in the 70's with "striking" his negatives, and then printing them.

Also, I do hope when people say they are dumping their fixer, they are disposing of it properly. Silver is valuable and belongs in film and paper, not in water.

Photo Engineer · Jun 10, 2010

As you print such a negative, the image prints out due to light exposure of the remaining silver halide. Gradually, each print takes on the appearance of having been flashed during development. This is called the Sabattier Effect.

PE

Importance of proper fixation...grim example.

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