Importance of fixer and stop bath in film/developer "recipe?"

[Jager]

Just goes to show you, Patrick, that even among experienced darkroom hands there are differences of opinion and an ebb and flow of techniques. B&W film developing is really quite resilient. The links Ned pointed you to will explain pretty much everything you need to know.

After years of more or less conventional practice, I've of late simplified my own process by moving to liquid developers (Rodinal, HC-110) and fixer (Ilford Rapid Fix); changed from Kodak Photo Flo to LFN Wetting Agent (eliminates need to make a working solution, as the couple drops of LFN are dispensed straight from the bottle); and dispensed with stop bath and hypo clear altogether. Everything is used one-shot. Easy peasy.

Welcome to the forum.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Oh yes, do not use stop bath so you can save lots of money.

Not a meaningful statement...

A stop bath is necessary with some developers which can react with the fixer to cause a stain on a print. I don't think they are used any more.

I use vinegar in cooking that is ok if diluted as an acid stop but some non pre hardened films will be damaged by an acid stop (or a carbonate developer).

A 3/4 full tank of water and 60 seconds of inversion will stop all development activity and is safer.

I was pointing out the false economy of saving money by avoiding buying stop bath. Stop bath is cheap. There are good reasons for using stop bath: stopping the developer and saving the fixer [hypo].

 

[Sirius Glass]

If you are on well water and pumping it by hands.

Question for knowledgeable folks:
I use HC-110, Kodak stop and Kodak powder fixer. If I wash it after stop bath, will it make fixer lasts longer?

Oh yes, do not use stop bath so you can save lots of money.

I think Sirius was trying for irony.

And the answer to your question is no. Just drain the stop well before adding the fixer.

Yes, Matt broke the code.

 

[fdonadio]

Yes, Matt broke the code.

He's the King of breaking codes.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

No pyro developer does not use the common hypos, instead it requires TF-4 or TF-5. Otherwise yes.

I've always used rapid fixer (Ilford's) with Pyrocat-HD, Obsidian Aqua, and years ago with PMK, and Rollo-Pyro, with no ill effects. For stop bath, I like to use citric acid, because I have tons of it on hand.

 

[gzhuang]

Well, for you can bypass the stopbath and just use water in between the developer and fixer for acidic stuff like Xtol and Ultrafin.

 

[Beanzu]

Hi all,

Thanks for the warm welcomes, and the replies. I'm looking forward to getting started!

I appreciate all the posts, but it looks like the thread morphed into a debate about having to use a stop bath or not. My original question - amended for clarity - is: if one is planning to use a fixer and/or stop bath chemical, is the importance of which product is chosen critical for completing the development process, or can any fixer and/or stop be chosen?

As an example, if I'm developing Ilford Delta 3200 with Ilfotec DD-X, is it important to use Ilfostop? Why wouldn't I/shouldn't I/couldn't I use Eco Stop instead? Or, what if I decided to develop with Rodinal? How does that change the scenario? What are the pros and cons? It doesn't seem like price is a huge factor: ~$6.50 for 500ml of Ilfostop versus $13 for a quart of Eco Stop. Again, just an example to bound the question.

Thanks again for the tips!

Patrick

 

[MattKing]

Which brand or type of stop bath you use doesn't matter with Delta 3200.

The type of fixer can matter, because the rapid fixers are quicker and more effective with the hard to fix films. The brand doesn't matter.

There are issues of practicality - availability, concentration, cost, convenience of packaging, odor.

The Sprint chemistry referred to by jnanian adds some convenience in that the capacity of each chemical is at least partially matched. But you can easy figure out capacity issues of others if you read the manufacturer's information.

 

[RobC]

fixer can affect the amount of dichroic fog you get in the film (the fog in fb+fog).

I have meant to do some testing of which are the best/worst for this but have never got round to it.

Has anyone else tested for the amount of fog with different fixers?

 

[Ian Grant]

fixer can affect the amount of dichroic fog you get in the film (the fog in fb+fog).

I have meant to do some testing of which are the best/worst for this but have never got round to it.

Has anyone else tested for the amount of fog with different fixers?

Developers can also be the cause of Dichroic fog particularly wit Kodak films.

Alkali fixers without an acidic stop bath are very prone to Dichroic fog as well which is why Ron Mowrey (PE) recommends a stop bath, it's not needed with slightly acidic fixers as long as they get a good water rinse after development.

Ian

 

[Kirks518]

Beanzu -

I'm not as experienced as many/most of the respondents that have already posted, but in my experiences, I have found that the brand doesn't matter.

I started off developing Kodak and Ilford films in Kodak HC-110, stopped with water, and fixed with Photographer's Formulary brand fixer. The HC-110 came in a bunch of darkroom supplies I picked up off craigslist, and the PF fixer was the least expensive, so that's what I started with. I chose the 'water stop bath' also because it was the least expensive route, and wanted to keep it on the cheap for my first few runs to see if it worked ok.

Now I'm developing all my B&W (Kodak, Ilford, Arista, and anything else that comes my way) in Kodak D-76, stopping with water, and fixing now with Ilford Rapid Fix. Same results - no issues with 'cross-branding'.

So, IMHO, what brand you use will not/should not have a noticeable impact on your developing. I think that consistency in your developing methods is 100x more important to the end result then what brand you use (ie, pour times, agitation methods, etc.).

In a way, you can think of it as a car's efficiency. Which has a greater impact on MPG? The brand of gas and oil you use, or the way you drive?

 

[Ian Grant]

RobC: The fog in "fb+fog" is not dichroic fog, and should have nothing to do with the fixer. The fog in fb+fog is a function of emulsion characteristics, age/storage and developer/development. The only way a fixer can affect it is if you up substantially over-fix in an acidic fixer, in which case the fixer will start to bleach developed silver.

Dichroic fog is a specific form of fog.

Alkaline fixers can potentially cause problems when a "water stop" is used if the water rinse doesn't substantially remove retained developer. A water stop should be given sufficient time, with several water changes (ideally a running water bath in the case of prints).

Just to clarify with an Alkaline fixer and a plain water stop bath dichroic fog is formed unless the stop step is very thorough which is why an acidic stop bath is recommended.

Ian

 

[RobC]

what strength do people recommend acetic acid stop bath to be? I've always used 1.5%. Well I think its 1.5% starting from 60% and diluting to a 25% stock and dilute from that for usage.

Would a 25% stock lose its acidity over time? I assume 60% wouldn't.

 

[Anon Ymous]

Would a 25% stock lose its acidity over time?

Few days ago I found a 1,5% indicator stop bath solution (acetic acid) that I was using about 18 months ago. It was still yellow, so definitely acidic. The bottle had shrunk a bit, so some oxidation must have occurred. Other than that, everything seemed fine.

In other words, the 25% solution won't lose its acidity over time.

 

[rmckinne]

I was recently getting bad yellow stains on the white borders of fiber prints and it turned out to be because of no acid rinse between developer (Dektol) and fix Formulary TF-5). The paper was rather old so that could have had something to do with it too but using an acid bath stopped the problem completely. The first print in a session would be fine. Next print had a faint yellowing. Successive prints were successively worse. I realized the developer spillover was building up in the water rinse and this was causing the yellowing. My advice is use an acid stop.

 

[fdonadio]

My advice is use an acid stop.

This advice is even more important for fiber-based papers, since it absorbs more developer than RC papers. It also absorbs more fixer, hence the longer wash times.

 

[mshchem]

When I was a kid I decided I was going to print pictures like my Dad. Pouring a quart of glacial acetic acid into an Ace hard rubber tray in the basement of our old house . Not one of my best ideas . When I learned how to read I found my Dad had penciled on the label 10cc per quart .
Best Regards Mike

 

[Bill Burk]

Oh yes, do not use stop bath so you can save lots of money.

That's good funny advice.

Also another false economy is using household distilled vinegar as stop bath... This is true that you can use it... Seems cheap when you pick up that bottle for a couple bucks from the store...

But when you realize how dilute the household vinegar is, and how fast it gets used when you mix it to the strength necessary for film stop bath... It costs more than the photographic grade prepared indicator stop bath, of which a small bottle seems to last forever...

 

[Zach-MLT-MD]

I am also really new to developing my own film. The way I understand it - in my head at least - is that the developer reacts with the crystals in the emulsion that were actually hit by light during the exposure. The stop simply stops the reaction. The developer erases everything off the emulsion that wasnt acted upon by the developer. Fixer is essential for stabilizing the negative - stop is totally optional, you can totally just rinse with water a few times after developing and then proceed to the fixing step.

 

[MattKing]

I am also really new to developing my own film. The way I understand it - in my head at least - is that the developer reacts with the crystals in the emulsion that were actually hit by light during the exposure. The stop simply stops the reaction. The developer erases everything off the emulsion that wasnt acted upon by the developer. Fixer is essential for stabilizing the negative - stop is totally optional, you can totally just rinse with water a few times after developing and then proceed to the fixing step.

It is the fixer that converts the undeveloped silver halides into water soluble compounds.
The stop bath stops development far faster and more consistently than a water rinse. The stop bath also ensures that the film is at the appropriate pH for the fixer and that there is essentially no developer carryover into the fixer - both of which factors optimize the operation of the fixer and maximize its life. Optimized fixer leads as well to quicker and more complete washing, which is critical to the permanence of your negatives and prints.
A water rinse is a lower quality compromise that is best reserved for emergency situations.

 

[LAG]

If one uses water instead of stop bath, the life of the hypo will be shortened.

Are you serious Sirius?

Fixer and stop do not matter that that much since they do not have an influence on the way the image is rendered... Any Fixer will work ...

I can't believe my eyes!

... If you use a neutral or alkaline fixer you must use a stop bath to stop the development. The development is stopped by the acidity of the fixer normally, and since these fixers are not acid, they can´t stop development! ...

I just cannot believe it!!!

... (Opinion here: Use a stop bath. Not only does it prolong the life of your fixer, it stops development instantly and efficiently and neutralizes the alkalinity of the developer as well. This makes fixing more efficient. Yes, you can use plain water, but stop right with water you need running water or a couple of changes of water for one minute . A stop bath doesn't have to be running or changed, does the job better and only needs 30 seconds.)

Instantly? Are you sure?

... The stop simply stops the reaction...

No

..., you can totally just rinse with water a few times after developing...

What does "a few times" mean?

... Is it important that the stop bath matches the developer? To the film? Are there pros/cons if the brands are mismatched? How about for the fixer?


Any references to good guides on film chemistry (either online, in books, etc.) is greatly appreciated.


Thanks,


Patrick

Excuse me Patrick

The importance does not lie neither the brand, nor the chemical match, to get the process done. And this, answers your #32 question as well. There are lots of literature – taking seriously - about this, both the process flow and all the chemicals involved.

Best of luck

 

[Zach-MLT-MD]

wow - i didnt say i did just use water - i said you could just use water. And actually with some fixers you are suppose to just use water.

No

what else does it do then? isnt the main point of it to kill any developer left on the film / adjust the ph to maximize fixer efficiency?

 

[Sirius Glass]

If one uses water instead of stop bath, the life of the hypo will be shortened.

Are you serious Sirius?

In a word? Yes
Another word? Absolutely

 

[Vaughn]

Several times I have dumped the stop out of my Jobo 3005/6 drums and realized I did not have the fix ready to pour in -- so I just poured in some water to hold it until I got the fix measured out. I have sort of started to do it regularily, figuring that why add an acidic solution to the fixer (Ilford Rapid Fixer). Fixers can handle it; obviously, as they have been handling it for many decades. I can't see it doing any harm and it does give me breathing room between steps.

I just processed my first drum full of 4x5 negatives in my new-to-me 3006 Expert Drum. What a sweet little beast it is! Just like the 3005 (for 5 8x10 negatives), same diameter but half the length (for 6 4x5s). The only problem is that I am developing film that really should not be given constant agitation...mellow development is what I need! (Tech Pan).

 

[LAG]

what else does it do then? isnt the main point of it to kill any developer left on the film / adjust the ph to maximize fixer efficiency?

Zach-MLT_MD, I wouldn't use the word "kill" either. Anyway, this questions are not the same as your "simply stops the reaction" above.

In a word? Yes
Another word? Absolutely

Sirius, to ensure that "If one uses water instead of stop bath, the life of the hypo will be shortened", is in my humble opinion (and as well as your answer, with the same number of words): Absolutely Wrong. Because, you can use a water Stop Bath (from now on, SB) so that ends happily and "clearly" with any type of subsequent contamination. Besides - and I will add you two more options for free -, (B) you can use no SB at all with that same ending you've mentioned, AND what it is much more important (C) you can use a beautiful-perfect-cheaper Acid SB to the (wrong) point of time/temp. so that the hypo will be shortened as well. So, seriously speaking, there is no "one way only".

The argument between (a) chemical SB or (b) water-only SB, will rage forever I think, so, to each his/her own. However, the question is not using one or another, but doing it properly.

That being said, we'll do a favour to those who want to start with all of this Stop/Fix, is that 1. the SB (with chemical or water) is not even absolutely necessary, 2. if by misfortune there is a mistake with the temperature in that SB, the consequences are not the same when using acid or not, 3. the type of SB to be used will depend not only in the possible impact with the rest of the process, but also with the type of process used, and the time needed, ... etc, etc With regard to the Fixer, that: 4. the importance of the fixing time is huge, 5. a good fixing not only lies on the side of the fixer, also on the importance of a properly final wash, 6. and etc, etc etc ... ... and they also should learn why ... to everything.

I "stop" here.
Best