Importance of fixer and stop bath in film/developer "recipe?"

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Beanzu

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Hi all,

I'm getting started in B&W film, and have been consuming tons of great info on this forum (and elsewhere) for the results of mixing different films with different developers. There's not a lot of mention on fixers or stop baths and how they relate to developers, though. Is it important that the stop bath matches the developer? To the film? Are there pros/cons if the brands are mismatched? How about for the fixer?

Any references to good guides on film chemistry (either online, in books, etc.) is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Patrick
 

Ron789

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Hi all,
Is it important that the stop bath matches the developer? To the film? Are there pros/cons if the brands are mismatched? How about for the fixer?

Patrick

The simple answer is... no. You can use any stop bath and any fixer for any regular film. Just check that the fixer can handle film: there are some fixers that are meant for fixing prints only.
I guess there may be some exotic products that are not so universal, but I cannot mention any example......
 

Sirius Glass

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Welcome to APUG
 

Sirius Glass

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The simple answer is... no. You can use any stop bath and any fixer for any regular film.

No pyro developer does not use the common hypos, instead it requires TF-4 or TF-5. Otherwise yes.
 

gone

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Well, to make it simpler, you really don't need the stop bath. I used it for years, and now I just use water, and there's been zero difference in my negs.

If you're just starting out I highly recommend shooting Tri-X (metered at 200 or 250) and developed in D76. Very forgiving combination that delivers beautiful photos.
 

Sirius Glass

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Well, to make it simpler, you really don't need the stop bath. I used it for years, and now I just use water, and there's been zero difference in my negs.

If you're just starting out I highly recommend shooting Tri-X (metered at 200 or 250) and developed in D76. Very forgiving combination that delivers beautiful photos.

If one uses water instead of stop bath, the life of the hypo will be shortened.
 

Ron789

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Using plain water instead of stop bath is an option for sure. As momus says, it will make no difference to your negs in most cases. All that stop bath does is neutralize the developer really fast, thereby stopping the developing process. Water will not do that so fastly, so the development may extend a little. Under normal conditions, the difference will be none or marginal. I need to have stop bath on stock for processing baryte papers. Since I have it anyway, I use it for film processing as well.
 

Xmas

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Hi all,

I'm getting started in B&W film, and have been consuming tons of great info on this forum (and elsewhere) for the results of mixing different films with different developers. There's not a lot of mention on fixers or stop baths and how they relate to developers, though. Is it important that the stop bath matches the developer? To the film? Are there pros/cons if the brands are mismatched? How about for the fixer?

Any references to good guides on film chemistry (either online, in books, etc.) is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Patrick

You can develop in coffee and wash aid and stop in faucet water but fixing and washing are critical if you might want your negatives in a few years.

Loads of nonsense about developers.

Use hypo clear as well as fresh fix at close to development temperature!
 

removed account4

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there have been long long threads regarding the need /necessity of stop.
some believe it is mandatory, others that it is not necessary for film or prints.
you can use 2 water baths back to back running water, one tray ...
it doesn't matter, the paper ( rc or fb, glass negatives, or tin ) or the film...
haven't used stop we since 1988 and haven't missed it ..
i look at as one less chemical to deal with

good luck welcome and have fun op !
 
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Sirius Glass

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Oh yes, do not use stop bath so you can save lots of money.
 

Slixtiesix

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Fixer and stop do not matter that that much since they do not have an influence on the way the image is rendered. Any Fixer will work, but for sake of convenience you should use one of the modern rapid fixers. Back in the past some films needed a hardening fixer but that is not the case anymore with any of the major manufacturers (Ilford, Kodak, Adox). I think some Efke films may still work better with hardening?
Stop bath is even less important. Any cheap stop will do what it should. You do not need to use a stop bath at all as some mentioned before. Only exception: If you use a neutral or alkaline fixer you must use a stop bath to stop the development. The development is stopped by the acidity of the fixer normally, and since these fixers are not acid, they can´t stop development! However these kinds of fixers are mostly used for fibre paper processing. You can use them with film as well though.
 

Xmas

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Oh yes, do not use stop bath so you can save lots of money.

Not a meaningful statement...

A stop bath is necessary with some developers which can react with the fixer to cause a stain on a print. I don't think they are used any more.

I use vinegar in cooking that is ok if diluted as an acid stop but some non pre hardened films will be damaged by an acid stop (or a carbonate developer).

A 3/4 full tank of water and 60 seconds of inversion will stop all development activity and is safer.
 

Xmas

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Fixer and stop do not matter that that much since they do not have an influence on the way the image is rendered. Any Fixer will work, but for sake of convenience you should use one of the modern rapid fixers. Back in the past some films needed a hardening fixer but that is not the case anymore with any of the major manufacturers (Ilford, Kodak, Adox). I think some Efke films may still work better with hardening?
Stop bath is even less important. Any cheap stop will do what it should. You do not need to use a stop bath at all as some mentioned before. Only exception: If you use a neutral or alkaline fixer you must use a stop bath to stop the development. The development is stopped by the acidity of the fixer normally, and since these fixers are not acid, they can´t stop development! However these kinds of fixers are mostly used for fibre paper processing. You can use them with film as well though.

This is so wrong a proper fix and proper wash are both essential, you can use any fine grain developer for 35mm like Eg D76, Microphen, ..., etc., they will get you an image but if you want it a year later ...
 
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No pyro developer does not use the common hypos, instead it requires TF-4 or TF-5. Otherwise yes.

Not accurate: I (and many others) have been using PMK (and Pyrocat) with non-alkaline rapid fixers for years with good results. I use Ilford Hypam or Rapid Fix personally. Never a problem. True, the alkaline fixers, TF-4 and TF-5 have advantages, but that is mostly in the more rapid washing out in fiber-base prints.

@OP: Stop baths generally come in two "incarnations," acetic acid and citric acid. They both work just fine with any developer, but citric acid stops don't keep as well in working solution; they grow bacterial slime after prolonged storage. I use my citric-acid stop one-shot. Acetic-acid stops can be stored until exhausted (usually there's an indicator; when that starts to turn from yellow then the stop is exhausted).

(Opinion here: Use a stop bath. Not only does it prolong the life of your fixer, it stops development instantly and efficiently and neutralizes the alkalinity of the developer as well. This makes fixing more efficient. Yes, you can use plain water, but stop right with water you need running water or a couple of changes of water for one minute . A stop bath doesn't have to be running or changed, does the job better and only needs 30 seconds.)

Fixers are a bit more complicated. There are several families, but can all be used for film and paper, but with some caveats. I'll go through them.

First there are the "conventional," sodium-thiosulfate based fixers. These work the slowest. Most are acidic and the majority of formulas are hardening (acid hardening fixer is a common term). They usually come as packaged powders. There are two caveats here. First, some experts feel that these type of fixers don't work as well with modern tabular-grain films (e.g., T-Max and Delta). If such a fixer is used with tabular-grain films, the fixing times are rather long. A "rapid fix" is recommended for these films. Second, the hardener in the fixer (if you get a hardening version) is largely held to be unnecessary for most modern films. If you use a hardening fix, you'll have to wash longer. This is a particular issue with fiber-base papers; non-hardening fixers are the standard for processing fiber-base papers for just this reason.

The second "category" are "rapid fixers." These fixers are based on ammonium (instead of sodium) thiosulfate and fix both film and paper in a shorter time (hence the term "rapid"). They are usually supplied in liquid concentrate form. The "normal" variety of these is slightly acidic to neutral in pH. They can be used without caveats for all films and papers; just follow the directions.

The third and newest group of fixers (well not "really new, but new in popularity) are the alkaline fixers. TF-4 and TF-5 (mentioned above) are more-or-less alkaline fixers, with TF-5 being very close to neutral. These are also "rapid fixers" but have been formulated without the usual acid to allow them to wash out easier. This is desirable, especially with fiber-base papers. These fixers also work for all materials, just follow directions.

There are more details and reasons why one fixer might be preferred over another, but, with the exception of the tabular-grain film/conventional fixer caveat, all can be used with both films and papers. If you're just starting out, you might consider a rapid fix or TF-5 (if you can get it where you are). Both are excellent and can be used with all materials.

Best,

Doremus

Doremus
 

removed account4

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patrick

sprint stop bath smells like vanilla, and if you use their "system" ( dev/stop/fix/fix remover ) ...
the stop "indicates" ( changes color ) when all of it goes bad. it is all liquid and mixed 1:9 and is foolproof.
its available on amazon or through the sprint website, or probably a photo store near you, its used by
a lot of schools. the developer is sort of like d76 but different and contrary to rumors spread around
this website and elsewhere the film and print developer are different chemical solutions and work very well.

if you want to mix/match developers and still use the rest of their chemistry you can do that too,
but you will have to monitor your developer and fixer and remover to see when they are exhausted.

good luck !
john
 
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Gerald C Koch

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If you are using a low alkalinity developer like D-76 or D-23 then you can use water rather than a stop bath. The effect on the fixer will be negligible. You will need a stop bath for FB prints.
 

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I vaguely remember my bottle of TF-4 saying do not use an acid stop bath and to use water instead. Looking at the data sheet right now, it implies an acid stop bath isn't necessary (not quite the same as "don't use").
 

MattKing

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As may be clear from posts like jnanian's above, when it comes to cost and convenience, there are differences between the options for stop bath and fixer.

For example, the slower, non-rapid fixers are available as powders, which makes them easier to ship and to store (in powder form) for long periods of time. If you are in a more remote location, this can be important.

If you intend to print on RC papers exclusively at first, the hardening fixers won't increase washing times appreciably. They may, however, make it harder to tone them.

With respect to stop baths, which I use and recommend, the acetic acid based versions (Kodak is one of them) tend to work out to be less expensive and longer lasting (when stored at working strength), but they have a much stronger odor. The citric acid based versions (Ilford is one of them) tend to work out to be slightly more expensive and shorter lasting, but they have a much milder odor. It is for that reason that I use both - acetic acid based for film, and citric acid based for printing (where you spend much more time with stop bath in an open tray).
 

Bob Carnie

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What he said & 1

When making large murals and also lith prints a fast stop is critical in my darkroom


Not accurate: I (and many others) have been using PMK (and Pyrocat) with non-alkaline rapid fixers for years with good results. I use Ilford Hypam or Rapid Fix personally. Never a problem. True, the alkaline fixers, TF-4 and TF-5 have advantages, but that is mostly in the more rapid washing out in fiber-base prints.

@OP: Stop baths generally come in two "incarnations," acetic acid and citric acid. They both work just fine with any developer, but citric acid stops don't keep as well in working solution; they grow bacterial slime after prolonged storage. I use my citric-acid stop one-shot. Acetic-acid stops can be stored until exhausted (usually there's an indicator; when that starts to turn from yellow then the stop is exhausted).

(Opinion here: Use a stop bath. Not only does it prolong the life of your fixer, it stops development instantly and efficiently and neutralizes the alkalinity of the developer as well. This makes fixing more efficient. Yes, you can use plain water, but stop right with water you need running water or a couple of changes of water for one minute . A stop bath doesn't have to be running or changed, does the job better and only needs 30 seconds.)

Fixers are a bit more complicated. There are several families, but can all be used for film and paper, but with some caveats. I'll go through them.

First there are the "conventional," sodium-thiosulfate based fixers. These work the slowest. Most are acidic and the majority of formulas are hardening (acid hardening fixer is a common term). They usually come as packaged powders. There are two caveats here. First, some experts feel that these type of fixers don't work as well with modern tabular-grain films (e.g., T-Max and Delta). If such a fixer is used with tabular-grain films, the fixing times are rather long. A "rapid fix" is recommended for these films. Second, the hardener in the fixer (if you get a hardening version) is largely held to be unnecessary for most modern films. If you use a hardening fix, you'll have to wash longer. This is a particular issue with fiber-base papers; non-hardening fixers are the standard for processing fiber-base papers for just this reason.

The second "category" are "rapid fixers." These fixers are based on ammonium (instead of sodium) thiosulfate and fix both film and paper in a shorter time (hence the term "rapid"). They are usually supplied in liquid concentrate form. The "normal" variety of these is slightly acidic to neutral in pH. They can be used without caveats for all films and papers; just follow the directions.

The third and newest group of fixers (well not "really new, but new in popularity) are the alkaline fixers. TF-4 and TF-5 (mentioned above) are more-or-less alkaline fixers, with TF-5 being very close to neutral. These are also "rapid fixers" but have been formulated without the usual acid to allow them to wash out easier. This is desirable, especially with fiber-base papers. These fixers also work for all materials, just follow directions.

There are more details and reasons why one fixer might be preferred over another, but, with the exception of the tabular-grain film/conventional fixer caveat, all can be used with both films and papers. If you're just starting out, you might consider a rapid fix or TF-5 (if you can get it where you are). Both are excellent and can be used with all materials.

Best,

Doremus

Doremus
 

Slixtiesix

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This is so wrong a proper fix and proper wash are both essential, you can use any fine grain developer for 35mm like Eg D76, Microphen, ..., etc., they will get you an image but if you want it a year later ...

Sorry you´re right Xmas, what I actually meant was that the make of fix and stop is not essential. Proper fixing (and washing) of course is! :pinch:
 

MattKing

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If you are on well water and pumping it by hands.

Question for knowledgeable folks:
I use HC-110, Kodak stop and Kodak powder fixer. If I wash it after stop bath, will it make fixer lasts longer?

I think Sirius was trying for irony.

And the answer to your question is no. Just drain the stop well before adding the fixer.
 
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