I'm stumped with this problem....

schrollphoto · Aug 30, 2019

This is going to be long, so please hang in there.
First of all, I've been developing film since 1972. I have never been stumped by a problem until now.
Details:
FP4+ (120) in PyroCat HD 2:2:100 (mixed in distilled water from liquid concentrate at time of development)
Water stop
TF-4 fixer
Water wash
I have been following this routine for 7 years now (20-30 rolls of 120 a year and 50-75 sheets of 4x5). I have never had a problem and love the results. 90% of my 120 goes through my Pentx67ii (purchased from the original owner 10 years ago).
The scenario:
I recently returned for a trip to Colorado and had 11 rolls and 18 sheets to develop. On the last roll I developed it by itself in a Paterson tank with the normal 500ml of working solution. All previous rolls were fine. This one came out nearly blank! I could barely see an image and none of the edge markings were visible. I immediately blamed myself for mixing the developer wrong or contamination. Thankfully, I don't do this professionally!
Fast forward to this morning. I had shot a roll last night of a tremendous cloud formation near sunset and was anxious to see the results. Since my last fiasco I had been paying very close attention to my process and had done several rolls without a problem since then. Imagine my surprise when I pulled out a blank or nearly blank roll of film!! (attached). I was dumbfounded. After venting for a while, I decided I had to figure out the problem, I had to recreate it. The developer concentrates were the same I have been using for the last two months. The fixer was the same gallon.
I have never had a problem with Ilford film in years and years of using it. I checked the emulsion batch numbers and I had two different ones both expiring in 2022. So, I loaded each different batch number in the same camera and exposed all 10 frames of each, then put them in a double tank, used all the same concentrates to mix working solutions, same sequence of everything and they both came out fine! Then, just for giggles, I loaded another roll of exposed film on the exact same reel and tank and tried it again. Came out fine!
Now I'm playing Russian Roulette with the next roll I've loaded. I do have D-76, ID-11, and HC-110 on hand and I'm thinking of trying them. I sent a similar email to Ilford moments ago but, not sure what or when they will get back to me.
Any ideas??
Tim
www.schrollphoto.com

jeffreyg · Aug 30, 2019

Camera shutter issue? Film advance issue? Actually I had a similar issue not too long ago with a roll of Delta 400 in a Hasselblad. I was using two at the time and figured I rewound the wrong one. Subsequent rolls were fine. The slight exposure in your closeup is a puzzle. Murphy's Law !

http://www.jeffreyglasser.com/

http://www.sculptureandphotography.com/

Bill Burk · Aug 30, 2019

This is a time where IR or a dim green safelight would help.

No edge markings seems to contradict the shutter failure explanation.

schrollphoto · Aug 30, 2019

I forgot to mention the two rolls hanging on either side of the bad roll are the two rolls processed right after I found the problem. One from each batch that I had on hand. Same camera and lens as the bad roll exposed the night before!

Sirius Glass · Aug 30, 2019

There are no edge markings, so I believe that the developer has gone bad. Take a piece of fresh film and develop it in daylight. If the film turns black the developer is good. If the film does not turn black the developer is bad.

Rudeofus · Aug 30, 2019

Just a short while ago there was a report of Pyrocat HD sudden death, with no real explanation, but some sort of confirmation that it may indeed happen. Small contamination in the film tank may make or break the developer it seems, at least after sufficient aging.

schrollphoto · Aug 30, 2019

As I mentioned, the two rolls hanging with the bad roll were developed after the bad roll in the same developer (mixed from the same two bottles of concentrate as the bad roll). When I exposed them, I used several different f-stop/shutter speed combinations. As you can see, the camera is right on as the frames look identical. I also developed a third roll in the same small tank as the bad roll with no ill affects. I was also wondering about the "sudden death" of my PyroCat which is why I shot test rolls after the bad roll to see if the developer had in fact "died". I tried to cover all my bases before posting here as I usually do. I am leaning toward Rudeofus's thoughts about contamination. In fact, the first time I had this issue several weeks ago, I assumed either I had mixed the developer wrong or somehow had contaminated the tank. I always use a separate beaker for developer only and the A and B have their own small beakers too (each plainly marked and only used for Pyro). I am very proud of the cleanliness of my darkroom and attention to detail in all of my film and print processing. This has been an eye opening experience!! Right now, I am going to switch to D76 1:1 until I figure this problem out.

pentaxuser · Aug 30, 2019

If I have read your posts correctly it sounds as if each film has a freshly made batch of PyroCat HD so logically the blank film was the result of something going wrong with the mixing of one batch of developer. Somehow something involved in the mixing of that batch of developer killed it stone dead? What that might be I cannot imagine.

With total blanks and no edge markings and had you been new to developing we'd all be tempted say that the cause was fix first. I have nothing like your experience but when I once got blank film it wasn't as a newcomer. I had been developing for about 8 years. To this day all I can think of as a reason is that I am in the habit of making the developer and fixer prior to the process and then placing both containers apart and in the right order so I can easily reach the developer but cannot from where I stand to develop reach the fixer. Something must have distracted me and I had separated them in the wrong order so within reach was the fixer not the developer. In your case if you only make up the fixer to be used after you have poured the developer into the tank then a switch isn't possible. You haven't said how you approach such mixing and whether there is a container of developer and one of fix prior to the pouring of developer

I appreciate that the problem with my post is that I seem to be hinting strongly that you might be guilty of the same switch and this may be insulting to you but I feel it has to be mentioned.

pentaxuser

Alan9940 · Aug 30, 2019

Man, I HATE it when problems like this crop up. The only time I've seen my film look like your center roll is when Pyrocat-HD has died. But, that can't be the case, since subsequent rolls came out fine. What a conundrum! I hope you figure it out because losing film to these kinds of problems is heartbreaking!

schrollphoto · Aug 30, 2019

pentaxuser said:
If I have read your posts correctly it sounds as if each film has a freshly made batch of PyroCat HD so logically the blank film was the result of something going wrong with the mixing of one batch of developer. Somehow something involved in the mixing of that batch of developer killed it stone dead? What that might be I cannot imagine.

With total blanks and no edge markings and had you been new to developing we'd all be tempted say that the cause was fix first. I have nothing like your experience but when I once got blank film it wasn't as a newcomer. I had been developing for about 8 years. To this day all I can think of as a reason is that I am in the habit of making the developer and fixer prior to the process and then placing both containers apart and in the right order so I can easily reach the developer but cannot from where I stand to develop reach the fixer. Something must have distracted me and I had separated them in the wrong order so within reach was the fixer not the developer. In your case if you only make up the fixer to be used after you have poured the developer into the tank then a switch isn't possible. You haven't said how you approach such mixing and whether there is a container of developer and one of fix prior to the pouring of developer

I appreciate that the problem with my post is that I seem to be hinting strongly that you might be guilty of the same switch and this may be insulting to you but I feel it has to be mentioned.

pentaxuser

No insult at all! I never get the fix out of the glass bottle until the developing process is well underway. I have made that switch years ago and learned my lesson! I even have a separate beaker for fix when I use my trays to develop sheet film. I still think I'm guilty of something, I can never blame the film! That is why I sent all those test rolls through the same camera/lens combination and processed it with the same set of chemistry. I appreciate your feedback too. My tendency in my photography is to "operator error" whenever something goes wrong. This is the first time I have been stumped.

schrollphoto · Aug 30, 2019

Alan9940 said:
Man, I HATE it when problems like this crop up. The only time I've seen my film look like your center roll is when Pyrocat-HD has died. But, that can't be the case, since subsequent rolls came out fine. What a conundrum! I hope you figure it out because losing film to these kinds of problems is heartbreaking!

I agree! Like I said, Russian Roulette until I figure it out!! But, I'm still going forward!!

schrollphoto · Aug 30, 2019

Another thing I just thought of.....when I opened this set of PyroCat HD in May, the A was a bit cloudy. At first I thought something was wrong so I did a test roll and it was right on the mark with time and density as I had tested the previous batch. Maybe it was getting close to its shelf life and a bit of contamination killed or almost killed it. I don't know. I always buy it from Photographer's Formulary in the glycol mixture. I have used the same source for the last 5 or 6 years. I go through one set about every 8 months. Just a thought.
Oh, thanks for all the feedback from everyone!

mshchem · Aug 30, 2019

Both lot numbers of film check out. No edge markings has to indicate a lack of development. I've always used Kodak developers, I have no experience with the Pyrocat formulas. 1972 ??? Maybe it's the ghost of Nixon!
Beats me? ? My default recommendation for folks is D76. I have used XTOL exclusively since it came out. Before that HC110 DIL B replenished, before that, in the Nixon era Microdol-X.

I have developed a million rolls in Paterson tanks, no way the tank is doing anything.

The only thing I can think of is some how the developer is contaminated with something that acts as a restrainer, but that makes no sense

If this keeps happening maybe leave the last frame blank, keep it as a retained sample and send it to Ilford or mix up a quart of D76 and develop it in a tray to look for frame numbers???

I'm totally unfamiliar with this developer, so I don’t know what to say.

mshchem · Aug 30, 2019

I would let Ilford know. You never know it's certainly possible that Ilford let a few strips out not up to snuff.

destroya · Aug 30, 2019

I had a very similar issue with my pentax 67II. the mother board went bad and I had issues on any shot with a speed slower than the sync speed. so all shots slower than 1/30 came out like your roll, and every shot after a frame slower than 1/30 came out like yours regardless of speed, so If your first shot was slow, than I would have a whole roll of blank.I hope you dont have that issue. My camera became a door stop as it cant be fixed. Good luck, I hope you find a cure. keep us filled in

john

RalphLambrecht · Aug 30, 2019

schrollphoto said:
This is going to be long, so please hang in there.
First of all, I've been developing film since 1972. I have never been stumped by a problem until now.
Details:
FP4+ (120) in PyroCat HD 2:2:100 (mixed in distilled water from liquid concentrate at time of development)
Water stop
TF-4 fixer
Water wash
I have been following this routine for 7 years now (20-30 rolls of 120 a year and 50-75 sheets of 4x5). I have never had a problem and love the results. 90% of my 120 goes through my Pentx67ii (purchased from the original owner 10 years ago).
The scenario:
I recently returned for a trip to Colorado and had 11 rolls and 18 sheets to develop. On the last roll I developed it by itself in a Paterson tank with the normal 500ml of working solution. All previous rolls were fine. This one came out nearly blank! I could barely see an image and none of the edge markings were visible. I immediately blamed myself for mixing the developer wrong or contamination. Thankfully, I don't do this professionally!
Fast forward to this morning. I had shot a roll last night of a tremendous cloud formation near sunset and was anxious to see the results. Since my last fiasco I had been paying very close attention to my process and had done several rolls without a problem since then. Imagine my surprise when I pulled out a blank or nearly blank roll of film!! (attached). I was dumbfounded. After venting for a while, I decided I had to figure out the problem, I had to recreate it. The developer concentrates were the same I have been using for the last two months. The fixer was the same gallon.
I have never had a problem with Ilford film in years and years of using it. I checked the emulsion batch numbers and I had two different ones both expiring in 2022. So, I loaded each different batch number in the same camera and exposed all 10 frames of each, then put them in a double tank, used all the same concentrates to mix working solutions, same sequence of everything and they both came out fine! Then, just for giggles, I loaded another roll of exposed film on the exact same reel and tank and tried it again. Came out fine!
Now I'm playing Russian Roulette with the next roll I've loaded. I do have D-76, ID-11, and HC-110 on hand and I'm thinking of trying them. I sent a similar email to Ilford moments ago but, not sure what or when they will get back to me.
Any ideas??
Tim
www.schrollphoto.com
View attachment 229903 View attachment 229904

hate to tell ya but when this happened to me once, it eventually turned out that I had used the fixer before using the developer.

Patrick Robert James · Aug 30, 2019

My first thought is you forgot part B..... That would give you some development but only of the areas of extreme exposure, like the highlights... If it came out completely blank then you might have forgotten part A.... Of course you might have put part A in twice, or part B in twice. Part A twice would give you a little development. Part B twice would give you blank film. That is the only logical explanation why you go from nothing to perfect negs....

Also, not to compound your problems but in the second image the last neg looks double exposed like the camera only advanced the film a couple mms. Just thought I'd point that out...

reddesert · Aug 30, 2019

Your film is blank or nearly blank and has no edge markings. That means the problem is in processing and more specifically in developing, not in-camera exposure. Unless the film is completely bad, insensitive to light and even the edge markings disappeared; this is very unlikely and seems ruled out by the roll that has faint images. It comes and goes between rolls. What changes between the rolls in your system? The mixing of the developer, because you are diluting fresh for each tank. (Plus, the fill order of dev-stop-fixer, of course.) Whether this is forgetting an ingredient, using one ingredient twice, or some more mysterious contamination, is unknown.

Psychologically, I'd wildly guess, you do things in a particular order, somehow got out of order once and got blank film, were then super careful for a while, and then may have relaxed a little and made a similar or related error again on the most recent failed film. We all make mistakes, which is why people with critical procedures use checklists or safeguards. For example, if one has a two part developer, one could store the two parts in different shaped bottles, make sure the developer container is different from the fixer container, etc.

Bill Burk · Aug 30, 2019

Patrick Robert James said:
My first thought is you forgot part B..... That would give you some development but only of the areas of extreme exposure, like the highlights... If it came out completely blank then you might have forgotten part A.... Of course you might have put part A in twice, or part B in twice. Part A twice would give you a little development. Part B twice would give you blank film. That is the only logical explanation why you go from nothing to perfect negs....

Also, not to compound your problems but in the second image the last neg looks double exposed like the camera only advanced the film a couple mms. Just thought I'd point that out...

That’s starting to sound logical, because there is “some” image, there was “some” developer. Maybe just 2/100’s of A

MattKing · Aug 30, 2019

Patrick Robert James said:
My first thought is you forgot part B.....

Or you used two batches of Part A, and none of Part B - sort of the same, but slightly different.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Aug 30, 2019

MattKing said:
Or you used two batches of Part A, and none of Part B - sort of the same, but slightly different.

When Part B is added to a solution containing Part A, there is a noticeable change in the colour of the solution. Due to the oxidation of Catechol in an alkaline environment, the solution turns pink or brown. This is something OP can watch out before pouring in the working solution into the tank. Also a clip test with the working solution can help detect scenarios like two batches of Part A or no Part B before the damage is done.

Alan9940 · Aug 30, 2019

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
Due to the oxidation of Catechol in an alkaline environment, the solution turns pink or brown. This is something OP can watch out before pouring in the working solution into the tank.

FWIW, when my Pyrocat-HD died suddenly recently, it turned the normal expected color when I mixed in Part B. Same thing the last time it died on me some years ago. Therefore, I'm not sure the color change is any real indication that it's good. A clip test is probably the best bet.

Mr Bill · Aug 30, 2019

I don't know that developer, but it sounds like you are mixing some quantity up for one-time use then discard? If so, perhaps a method I've been using for a lot of years may be helpful. It is to temporarily SAVE the used developer. Then, if the film development somehow goes bad you still have the developer in question - you can develop a piece of film leader, or whatever, in the light to determine if the developer is dead. After I see that the developed film is ok, then I discard the developer.

With respect to "sudden death" of developer, I would think that testing a small sample (via some 35mm exposed leader going black) immediately prior to the real film ought to be reliable. Or you could even test from the same 120 roll you're developing if you don't use the last frame (clip off an inch or so before loading the reel).

Until you can actually nail something down it may be worth doing your irreplaceable film in a different developer.

Something else you might consider doing, IF you have the gear, is to video your entire developing process. You might see yourself doing something dumb that didn't seem that way at the time.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Aug 30, 2019

Alan9940 said:
FWIW, when my Pyrocat-HD died suddenly recently, it turned the normal expected color when I mixed in Part B. Same thing the last time it died on me some years ago. Therefore, I'm not sure the color change is any real indication that it's good. A clip test is probably the best bet.

Sudden death, by definition, can happen anytime, for example, after one does the clip test and pours the solution into the tank. My suggestion on watching out for colour change in the working solution was primarily to catch scenarios that Patrick and Matt presented. In those scenarios, sudden death is not the issue, inadvertent failure to prepare the working solution in the right way is the issue.

Rudeofus · Aug 31, 2019

Since PyroCat HD is always prepared fresh from concentrate. After the first mostly blank roll Tim took extra care to mix correctly, yet exactly one of the newly developed rolls showed the same symptoms. And, according to his posting, he's an experienced PyroCat HD user. All this taken together would more or less exclude a noob or mixing error.

There's a lot of stuff which can quickly drive a dilute developer over the edge: trace metal residues in the mixing beaker, excessive stirring. There is one - albeit painful - way to find out, whether "sudden death" was indeed the culprit: add some powerful sequestering agent (DTPA, Phosphonic Acids, a combination of TEA and Salicylic Acid as in Ryuji Suzuki's developers, ...) to your water before you add the developer concentrates. If this prevents this effect from ever happening again, then you at least know what happened. You may have to change development times a bit to account for pH change due to sequestering agent(s). If such a sequestering agent does not prevent this type of failure, then some other culprits have to be determined.

I'm stumped with this problem....

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