I'm new to lith printing: Fotospeed LD20, Rollei Superlith or Rollei Lith developer?

[TheToadMen]

I've never done lith printing, but want to give it a try this year. Since I'm gonna order some films and chemicals this week at Macodirect.de,
I'm gonna order me a lith developer kit to save on shipping costs.

I can choose between:
* Fotospeed LD20 Lith Developer (500ml each Dev A & B) €25.40
* Rollei SUPERLITH A/B 2x 500ml KIT €35.70 (more concentrated?)
Both are recommended by Tim Rudman in his Materials Update 2013.

Macodirect.de also sells: Rollei LITH DEVELOPER 1L Part A 500ml, Part B 500ml €33.90
About this one Tim says: "I am told this should have an action similar to Moersch's Easylith, but I have not tried it yet and would welcome feedback."

My question is: which one is better to give a try as a beginner without any experience with lith printing?

I don't mind experimenting and failing a lot while learning, but don't mind a head start ;-)

BTW:
I haven't bought any lith paper yet, but (according to Tim Rudman again) Slavich Unibrom 160 BP seems to be a good start, if I can find it overhere in Europe (Macodirect doesn't have it).

Thanks for the help in advance,
Bert from Holland
http://thetoadmen.blogspot.nl

 

[mfohl]

Hello Bert, I also recently started lith. I use Moersch Easy Lith and Foma 133 paper, and I am encouraged by the results. I don't know if those are available to you.

The two things I have learned in two sessions are: don't make the developer too dilute, and keep the temperature up a little. At first, I mixed my developer at 1:1:50 at 20C. But I had better results at 1:1:30 at 25C. I also have been told to keep good notes and to keep trying!

Cheers,

-- Mark

 

[TheToadMen]

Hi Mark,
Thanks for the tips. Moersch Easy Lith is available, but not at Macodirect.de.
Do you use: Fomatone MG classic Warmtone Baryt paper?
I can get the 131 type (glossy) and the 132 type (matt). I guess type 133 is with a pearl finish?
I suppose it doesn't matter what type of this paper one uses?

And taking notes I won't forget. Also not changing more than one factor at a time to know what causes the changes....

 

[TheToadMen]

I use Moersch Easy Lith and Foma 133 paper, and I am encouraged by the results. I

Hi Mark,
An other question.

Tim Rudman says: "In 2012 Foma had to find a new source for their gelatine. Although this had little effect ontheir paper's response to conventional B&W developers, it has changed the way theyrespond in Lith. Lith printing is particularly sensitive to such things. The gelatine change started from Fomatone (MG Classic 131 + 132) emulsion number060848. Fomabrom emulsions will also change shortly. "

Could you tell what the batch number of your paper is? Is it old or new emulsion? The new emulsion apparently needs an other treatment. (See his manual (page 13-15) I mentioned above).
Thanks,
Bert

 

[mfohl]

Hi Bert, this is type 133 and apparently it is a "Velvet" surface. And the emulsion number is 064646 / 01. Does this help?

-- Mark

 

[mfohl]

Hey Bert, here is one of my lith prints. I put it in the gallery. Is this the effect you're looking for?

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

-- Mark

 

[Bob Carnie]

I like the Fotospeed LD20 - I believe it is the direct descendent of Champion Nova Lith .

 

[Bob Carnie]

Speaking of Lith Developers , has anyone here figured out the components to make lith developer from scratch?

 

[Mark Fisher]

The Rollei/Maco is the best I've found. In the US, there was only one version so I can't comment on the differences. I haven't tried LD20 as it is more expensive here, but I understand it is similar. I have to say, though, those prices are really high compared to the US. Generally, I've found Moersch SE5 and Rollei to be similar (bit more color from Rollei) so if Moersch is less expensive in the EU, I'd use that.

 

[Bob Carnie]

Speaking of expensive... I bought Champion Nova Lith in Five Gallon Containers in the early 90's .. for A and B the price was $100

Today I cannot buy 1 litre for under $100- these are insane prices and frankly have stopped me from wanting to do the Lith Process.


therefore my quest for a good scratch formula as I do love the look.

 

[miha]

Bob, I'm sure you've seen this before: http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/LithDev/lithdev.html

 

[Bob Carnie]

yes , I have tried them with no stellar results, has any one here compared the results to LD20 and found great results? curious.
thanks for the link

Bob, I'm sure you've seen this before: http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/LithDev/lithdev.html

 

[Bob Carnie]

For me , when you mix the a and b if the mixture does not go milky then you will not get good results.. I am thinking this is due to lack of paraformalydehide.

curious to others observations.

 

[Simonh82]

Easylith gave me great, colourful results first go. If one of the rollei products is said to be close to this I'd go with it. I have also used LD20 and have never got quite the same colour.

I wouldn't start with unibrom. It is a very temperamental paper. You could end up frustrated. Look on eBay for old paper. There is plenty out there.

 

[TheToadMen]

I wouldn't start with unibrom. It is a very temperamental paper. You could end up frustrated. Look on eBay for old paper. There is plenty out there.

What types of paper do you recommend for a beginner?

 

[mooseontheloose]

Speaking of Lith Developers , has anyone here figured out the components to make lith developer from scratch?

Bob, living in Japan where there are no lith developers (and where it is quite expensive to ship it here) I too looked into making my own lith developer but decided not to pursue it because I have yet to find a formula that appears successful for more than one or two prints, and that lasts in open trays. If you ever find one, I'd love to hear about it!

For everyone else asking about papers, I think the best thing is find ANY paper you know to be lithable (I won't go there since there's a lot of info about it already) and just try it. Or get a few smaller boxes of different brands and try them (that's what I did when I first started). You'll soon find what you like and what you don't.

 

[TheToadMen]

Hi everyone,
After some thinking, reading and watching several lith prints (here in the APUG Gallery) I have "limited" my options to two types of developer and two brands of paper. I want to try my first lith printing (experimenting) this summer during the holidays, so I can spend several days on a roll testing &trying, failing & learning.

I think I'll get me (from http://www.thephotoshop.ie)
Moersch EasyLith
Slavisch Unibrom 160 (Matt)
Fomabrom Variant 111 FB (Gloss)

and (from http://www.macodirect.de)
Fotospeed LD20 lith developer
Fomaspeed Variant 312 RC (Matt)
Fomabrom Variant 112 FB (Matt)

I would also have loved to try Arista lith developer, but this isn't available in Europe, as far as I know.
Maybe I should shorten the list of Foma paper to just one paper. Normally I like matt paper better than glossy paper. But can anyone tell me if this goes for lith prints as well (subjective as it may be)?
And what do you think is better for lith: Fomabrom 111/112 FB or Fomaspeed 312 RC?

I like corse, gritty lith prints, mostly blacks and not too much color (at first). I read in several threads that temperature is an important factor too. Higher temperature is shorter dev times and more color?

BTW: Here are some lith prints from the APUG Gallery I liked and where my guidance:
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Thanks,
Bert from Holland

 

[mooseontheloose]

Great list of images! I've added quite a few to my favorites as well (I guess I missed them the first time around). If you've seen my lith prints you know I mostly print with Fomatone (at least the old formulation, haven't tried the new one yet). When I first tried lith printing I loved the colours, now, not so much. But I haven't experimented much with toning. When I want to go for less colour, I don't season the developer at all -- keeps things creamier for a while longer. I do like the gritty look of some papers like Slavich, but having used it myself (not much, admittedly), I found it really depended on the subject matter...and quality control on the paper wasn't always the best. I also heard (at Tim Rudman's workshop, if I remember correctly) that Arista lith tends to work better with Slavich papers -- don't know if that's true though.

Anyway, getting back to your questions, I prefer matt papers as well, although I use glossy for normal prints, I almost never do for lith. As for colour (or not), it depends on the paper, dilution, temperature, and how seasoned your developer is. High contrast, little colour prints require shorter exposure times and stronger dilutions than more moderate contrast, more colourful prints (with longer exposure times and longer developing times as well). I think trying a variety of papers in the beginning is good. It's after you've done a lot of prints, and screwed up enough times as well (it becomes quickly apparent if you need more exposure or more development) that you tend to favour certain papers and dilutions over others.

Also, have you considered using Ilford MGWT for lith? I haven't used it as such (I've got a box waiting for experimentation though) but it's definitely not as colourful as other papers (and I think not as gritty as Slavich).

Some examples (not mine, although the latter came about in response to a question I had):
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

 

[thefizz]

The best Foma papers to start with are the MG Classic Fibre papers with codes 131 gloss, 132 matt and 133 velvet/pearl, but only if they were made with the old gelatin. I have 131 and 133 in stock with old gelatin - http://www.thephotoshop.ie/index.php?route=product/category&path=68

Peter

 

[TheToadMen]

Hi Peter,
I was about to mail you, but you beat me to it. I only see the Fomatone MG Classic (131 Gloss)
in your webstore, so I wanted to ask you if you also have the 132 and 133 in stock.
I don't know the difference in these papers between Matt and Pearl, but I prefer both to Gloss.
Which one do you prefer for lith printing? 132 or 133?
Bert

 

[thefizz]

Hi Bert, sorry yes the 131 is the only one showing on the site at present but I also have some sizes in 133. If you pm your email address to me I'll contact you tomorrow with prices and sizes available.

All three MG Classic papers will lith the same so it's just a matter of what type of suface you like. I like them all for lith printing.

 

[TheToadMen]

Hello Rachelle,
I didn't check all the images on APUG and missed some of yours. Did see the elephant, though.
I went through your gallery and the I like these lith best:
(there was a url link here which no longer exists) (for the camera used, the composition and the atmosphere)
(there was a url link here which no longer exists) (lovely portret, almost like a drawing with pen & ink)
and my favorite: (there was a url link here which no longer exists) (beautiful lith, great composition, like two windows to new worlds).
If I might ever make a decent lith print and would meet you in the lith exchange, you know what you can send me

I've heard of the Ilford MGWT paper, but I've never used it. It's also more expensive than Foma and Slavish, so I'll try these two first.

I'll also stick to Matt for lith as well, as I do with regular B&W prints.
Thanks,
Bert

Great list of images! I've added quite a few to my favorites as well (I guess I missed them the first time around). If you've seen my lith prints you know I mostly print with Fomatone (at least the old formulation, haven't tried the new one yet). When I first tried lith printing I loved the colours, now, not so much. But I haven't experimented much with toning. When I want to go for less colour, I don't season the developer at all -- keeps things creamier for a while longer. I do like the gritty look of some papers like Slavich, but having used it myself (not much, admittedly), I found it really depended on the subject matter...and quality control on the paper wasn't always the best. I also heard (at Tim Rudman's workshop, if I remember correctly) that Arista lith tends to work better with Slavich papers -- don't know if that's true though.

Anyway, getting back to your questions, I prefer matt papers as well, although I use glossy for normal prints, I almost never do for lith. As for colour (or not), it depends on the paper, dilution, temperature, and how seasoned your developer is. High contrast, little colour prints require shorter exposure times and stronger dilutions than more moderate contrast, more colourful prints (with longer exposure times and longer developing times as well). I think trying a variety of papers in the beginning is good. It's after you've done a lot of prints, and screwed up enough times as well (it becomes quickly apparent if you need more exposure or more development) that you tend to favour certain papers and dilutions over others.

Also, have you considered using Ilford MGWT for lith? I haven't used it as such (I've got a box waiting for experimentation though) but it's definitely not as colourful as other papers (and I think not as gritty as Slavich).

Some examples (not mine, although the latter came about in response to a question I had):
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

 

[TheToadMen]

PM sent

Hi Bert, sorry yes the 131 is the only one showing on the site at present but I also have some sizes in 133. If you pm your email address to me I'll contact you tomorrow with prices and sizes available.

All three MG Classic papers will lith the same so it's just a matter of what type of suface you like. I like them all for lith printing.