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Maris

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hi maris

i think before photographic images people knew exactly what they looked like.
there have always been shiny objects, mirrors, reflective surfaces, water, glass ..
while i admire your train of thought, i don't think people didn't know what they looked like ...
not even in "cave man" times

Precisely the point! Shiny objects, mirrors, reflective surfaces, ... always show a mirror-reversed face. This is not the actual appearance of a face or how other people see the same face. The portrait experiment I do with the flipped negative delivers a reversed face which matches what the subject sees thousands of times in a mirror. They think it's what they look like but it's not. I've even had it told to me "You're the first photographer to capture me as I truly am." when I show a flipped portrait. The portrait sitter's friends nearly always pick the mirror portrait as false and the straight portrait as true.

Before the invention of photography it was theoretically possible to use mirrors to see ones face as others see it. But using two mirrors and looking at a reflection of a reflection the left to right flip is cancelled. I've tried this and it is a somewhat disconcerting experience particularly when trying to shave or comb hair!
 

markbarendt

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Precisely the point! Shiny objects, mirrors, reflective surfaces, ... always show a mirror-reversed face. This is not the actual appearance of a face or how other people see the same face. The portrait experiment I do with the flipped negative delivers a reversed face which matches what the subject sees thousands of times in a mirror. They think it's what they look like but it's not. I've even had it told to me "You're the first photographer to capture me as I truly am." when I show a flipped portrait. The portrait sitter's friends nearly always pick the mirror portrait as false and the straight portrait as true.

Before the invention of photography it was theoretically possible to use mirrors to see ones face as others see it. But using two mirrors and looking at a reflection of a reflection the left to right flip is cancelled. I've tried this and it is a somewhat disconcerting experience particularly when trying to shave or comb hair!

I went to large-format camera workshop where we did a day of portraits, it happened to be the first time that I had looked through an 8 x 10 camera where the magnification was close to 1:1; the face was nearly filling the ground glass.

The setup was such that there was no visual clue which way was up once you were under the dark cloth. My brain self-corrected the image that I was seeing, I saw the image in its normal upright position as if I was feeling without the camera.

Of the group at the workshop about half of us had actually had the same experience at some point.
 

dorff

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color negatives or diapositives aren't true to life, black and white images even less

Just like dinosaur bones don't tell the whole story, they do tell enough to know that there was a reality that looked different from the one we have now. Photographs help give shape to that reality, not in a complete manner, but a whole lot better than it would have been otherwise. Of course, photographs can and do lie, largely to the extent the photographer chooses to make them lie, but also through the context in which they are presented. So a photograph without context and supporting evidence is a lot weaker, from a representation of truth perspective.

with the ephemeral quality the materials we are all fooling ourselves with it all just like chalk on the sidewalk ?

what do you do with the illusions you make, and do you even suggest that they might not be "real"

Of course everything is ephemeral. It is only the time scale that differs, not the inevitability. Compared to human lifetimes, species have a life of maybe 1 to 4 million years, sometimes a lot less, even. That is still ephemeral! I happen to have a plant species named after me. It is a strange thing: to have this being named after oneself, it having been here for countless millennia, while I have graced the world with my presence for barely a blink of an eye. But I digress. In terms of our experience, archival photographs are pretty permanent, and as real as we choose them to be. Simply because we are even more ephemeral, and our memories ever so fleeting. Photographs are a memory crutch, if nothing else. And if they don't expand anyone else's chosen reality, then what can I do about it when I'm gone? Consider a thousand years from now: What will happen with all the images in the world, and who will look after them? Their context lost, they will become noise, like dinosaur bones withered into pebbles, then grains and finally dust, no longer recognizable for what they once were. And would the dinosaur care?
 

Jim Jones

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even straight forward documentary photography isn't really what's there. . . .

And words are even further from reality than photographs. If a photograph is worth a thousand words, let's get real, shut up, and go photographing.
 
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Precisely the point! Shiny objects, mirrors, reflective surfaces, ... always show a mirror-reversed face. This is not the actual appearance of a face or how other people see the same face. The portrait experiment I do with the flipped negative delivers a reversed face which matches what the subject sees thousands of times in a mirror. They think it's what they look like but it's not. I've even had it told to me "You're the first photographer to capture me as I truly am." when I show a flipped portrait. The portrait sitter's friends nearly always pick the mirror portrait as false and the straight portrait as true.

Before the invention of photography it was theoretically possible to use mirrors to see ones face as others see it. But using two mirrors and looking at a reflection of a reflection the left to right flip is cancelled. I've tried this and it is a somewhat disconcerting experience particularly when trying to shave or comb hair!

ahh, thanks for that maris, i thought you were suggesting something different
and i understand now. but .. in the 20th century for someone to
not recognize a photograph of THEMSELVES or THEIR KIDS or THEIR FAMILY/FRIENDS
because it wasn't flipped seems a bit strange ... i can understand
that they think it looks like a "better picture/likeness" but to say "who is that?!"
it is like people not realizing clark kent is superman because he is wearing glasses. :smile:

maybe in the 1800s when the "flip" was invented but in modern times ...
it seems that people all to often know exactly what they look like in reflections and photographs.

And words are even further from reality than photographs. If a photograph is worth a thousand words, let's get real, shut up, and go photographing.

:smile:
 
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omaha

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...large-format camera...My brain self-corrected the image that I was seeing, I saw the image in its normal upright position as if I was feeling without the camera.

I just realized over the weekend that I've had a similar "brain-training" thing when using my WLF on medium format. When I first started with that last year, the left/right opposite thing really messed me up. Somewhere between then and now, its become automatic. And I've been shooting with it so much that I occasionally find myself getting it "wrong" when I'm using a camera with a prism finder.
 
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removed account4

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I don't think so. I think photos can lead us astray faster.

words can be misconstrued but the foundation is there, but images are removed from "reality"
and force people to create their own "reality" from the visual clues in the images.
 
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