Ilford Warmtone paper with Ilford Warmtone Developer- not very warm?

I made some enlargments last night (my first ones) and got the same neutral-ish tone with MGWT and MG developer. I want it warm... Really warm....I have some lpd that I'll try next.
I also want to try my 'strong' lith mix with Fomatone to see if I can get that with enlargements like I did with a (there was a url link here which no longer exists).

Definitely give lpd a try with mgwt. Much much warmer. I did 1:4 of the liqui vversion. I think I just replenish it but make it stronger. I want it warmer still. can see the want iof warmth from pt/pd. I want the warmth of wet plate.

Zathras said:

Has anybody tried this paper with Ansco-130?

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Yes, I didn't find it very warm. I expected a more pronounced warm tone. I also could not get it to do anything in selenium.

Last night I did lpd and foma warmtone 133 and it's beautiful. With selenium it's a great warmth. I'll scan a print tomorrow.

Scott

Here's an example of fomatone and lpd. Hard to get the real tone.

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Ilford Warmtone developer does not change the tone of Ilford Warmtone paper.

I bought some Ilford Warmtone developer the other day hoping to make my Ilford Warmtone FB Semi-matt prints a little warmer, but I found I could see absolutely no difference from prints made with Ilford multigrade paper developer.

I searched threads and saw claims that developer strengths and times made a difference, so I made a series of tests with dev times of 1, 2 and 3 minutes and strengths of 1:4, 1:9, 1:29 and 1:49, all with contrast grade 2. All prints came out identically with the same colour and contrast except 1 min @ 1:29 and 1 min @ 1:49 which failed to reach black. I compared them to a print made with multigrade developer and it looks the same as all the others.

Here is a scan of my results:

FYI you don't have to wait to selenium tone. Using a 2-bath fixing setup (which is good practice anyway) will setup prints for serial processing in any dilution of selenium toner and then right into the wash. This of course isn't rational for prints where you plan to tone in something else before selenium or not using selenium at all.

I just wanted to put it out there because some believe you need a full wash before Se. You do not. You only need a full fix - which one wants of course anyway.

You need to increase exposure when cutting the development times.

This was Fomabom 111 in ID-78 (similar to Ilford Warmtone):



To get maximum warmth I would use a harder grade of paper increase the exposure and cut development to a minimum. Just diluting a developer further does nothing useful if everything else isn't controlled to match.

Sometimes the warmth appears slightly greenish but a short toning in KRST or simila selenium toner turns that green to a reddish colour.

Ian

clayne said:

FYI you don't have to wait to selenium tone. Using a 2-bath fixing setup (which is good practice anyway) will setup prints for serial processing in any dilution of selenium toner and then right into the wash. This of course isn't rational for prints where you plan to tone in something else before selenium or not using selenium at all.

I just wanted to put it out there because some believe you need a full wash before Se. You do not. You only need a full fix - which one wants of course anyway.

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You do need good fixing, two bath preferably or the Selenium toner causes stains, a soak in Sodium Sulphite prior to toning can help, or plain Thiosulphate solution.

Ian

Yep. Stains in selenium toner should be taken seriously - that is one's fixer is done for and they need to rotate baths. That being said I've NEVER seen a stain when using a 2 bath regiment. I do the second fix bath at the end after I'm done printing and then onto KRST and wash.

JLP said:

Also my experience. I like the Ilford WT paper a lot, it is one of, if not my favorite paper but I would like to see it warmer. Selenium toning helps a bit but this paper is not easy to tone.
Maybe I will give the LPD a try, thanks for the tip.

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Whaaat?

Like most warm tone papers I find it tones very readily.

I get the same "warm-ish" tones from this combo. For more chocolaty tones I tone in 1/8th strength brown toner (Freestyle Legacy Pro brand, same as old Kodak brown toner) and even so usually tone 45 seconds or less. Toning continues and even speeds up briefly in water, then a bit more in drying, so if you tone to the color you want you will over do it. Tone for maybe 30 seconds and dump in water bath, give it a couple of minutes and examine (you can dry in a microwave or with a hair dryer if needed until you get the hang of how much more it changes in drying.) If it's not enough, repeat the process.

Warning - if you wash completely before toning, and this includes a wash aid, the wash aid will RADICALLY slow toning, even if pretty thoroughly washed in between. I think it's retained suphite but I'm not sure, I've just finally figured out the connection, not specifically why. You should be good with a good soak followed by tone, then full wash.

I get results from a subtle result like this:

Max by Roger Cole, on Flickr

to an intermediate result like this:

New Orleans Courtyard - Toned by Roger Cole, on Flickr

to something much browner like this:

Dead Link Removed
Dead Link Removed by Roger Cole, on Flickr

Of course you can also go full brown/sepia more so than any of these if desired.

It takes a while to get the hang of, but is very flexible and the results are really exceptional.

Ian Grant said:

You need to increase exposure when cutting the development times.
To get maximum warmth I would use a harder grade of paper increase the exposure and cut development to a minimum. Just diluting a developer further does nothing useful if everything else isn't controlled to match.

Sometimes the warmth appears slightly greenish but a short toning in KRST or simila selenium toner turns that green to a reddish colour.
Ian

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My initial test was motivated by comments in other threads:
Ian Grant: "... Longer exposures and short development times give greater warmth. ..."
Nicholas Linden: "To get warmer tones try diluting the developer (a lot, start with 2-3x normal dilution), extending the developing time (2x or more) and increasing the exposure (as needed). You will have to play around, but it is possible to get almost sepia-like tones.

My test supports the claim that dilution doesn't change much. It just seems to slow things down. It also supports the advice I was given to never vary development details to tune the look of an image, but to do it all with exposure and contrast settings. Once the print has been in the developer long enough it settles down to a constant look that is invariant with developer type, developer dilution, how long the developer has been sitting in the tray etc.

I did another test today to understand how colour changes with development. My most under-developed print had a very sepia look, but of course had no black. My next test aimed to put middle grey on segment 10. This test shows how the print is much less contrasty as the image approaches steady-states. It also shows the tones all have the saturation of the maximum black, and as you approach maximum black, the colour disappears. One of my prints had a beautiful deep chocolate as the darkest colour, and that might be nice for some images, but I wasn't able to get a black-> chocolate ->sepia-> white gradation.

My conclusion is that Ilford WT developer is not something I will use regularly. I may occasionally wish to hunt for the tiny sweet spot where you get close to black and slightly more tone, but that will rarely happen.

I think you are right about KRST toning. The few times I have tried it with Ilford MG RC, I got slightly purple tones that I don't like that much. The 'greenish' tones of Ilford WT paper will probably mix well with the KRST purple and yield something I like more.

(After all that's said, I do still like the look of Ilford WT paper.)

Your dilution of 1+29 is possibly rather extreme, I'd maybe use 1+14 to extend the development time but no further. Perhaps as well you're seeking something that doesn't exist unless you use some type of split toning "black-> chocolate ->sepia-> white gradation."

The warmest warm-tone prints shouldn't have a deep black they have deep warm brown instead, the trick is to use Selenium toning to boost tha deep warm brown to a darker tone , or even let that deep tone split to give a red tone, a technique used by many but best seen in the work of Thomas Joshua Cooper, Olivia Parker and Linda connor.

Older paper like Record Rapid and Portriga Rapid (before the Cadmium was removed) gave superp olive blacks and could even give quite reddish blacks with dilution and over-exposure.

Look at the last image Roger Cole has posted that's the kind of warmth Ilford Multigrade Warmtone is easily capable of.

Ian

I admit I haven't compared WGWT in Harman WT developer versus other developers. I've been using WT developer with it and LPD for prints on MCC 110 or MGFB that I intend to be cool or neutral, so maybe I need to compare developers and could simplify that. But I do find MGWT response very well to toning. That last image Ian mentioned was toned in 1/4 strength brown toner for 40 seconds as I wrote on Flickr.

Ian Grant said:

Older paper like Record Rapid and Portriga Rapid (before the Cadmium was removed) gave superp olive blacks and could even give quite reddish blacks with dilution and over-exposure.

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I'm intrigued if you know of a modern combination that gives nice olive blacks?
It sounds up my alley

Best Olive blacks use IT8 toner. this is a dichromate/chloride bleach and a Pyrocatechin redeveloped. I can post a link later.

Ian

OK here's the link to Ilford IT-8 Toner, it's one I use occasionally, quite unique olive tones which can't be obtained any otherway. The developer part needs to be fresh or it cuses background staining.

Ian

Thanks Ian! That's beautiful! Love that look.
I've had poor results with bleaching and redeveloping.....
However, I'm pretty sure the bleach I made is different than that recipe. I had been trying to play with thiocarbamide. I'm definitely going to give this a try. Thanks again.

Ian Grant said:

I've had good warm tones with the paper, you need to cut dev times to a minimum and increase exposure to get more warmth. I don't process for longer tthan a minute when I require maximum warmth.

Ian

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roughly how much do you increase exposure to get that effect?
Is that with a warm tone developer or neutral?
do you keep developer dilution stays the same?

ericdan said:

roughly how much do you increase exposure to get that effect?
Is that with a warm tone developer or neutral?
do you keep developer dilution stays the same?

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I only use warm-tone developer these days, Ilford ID-78 which I mix from raw chemicals to a commercial strength. I've never checked how much I increase exposure as I do my test strips etc to suit the way I work, I mix to to the normal 1+9 but keep dev times short usually between 45 seconds and 75 seconds with FB paprers, I could dilute to 1+14 and dev for a touch longer - the results would be the same.

Ian

Ian Grant said:

I only use warm-tone developer these days, Ilford ID-78 which I mix from raw chemicals to a commercial strength. I've never checked how much I increase exposure as I do my test strips etc to suit the way I work, I mix to to the normal 1+9 but keep dev times short usually between 45 seconds and 75 seconds with FB paprers, I could dilute to 1+14 and dev for a touch longer - the results would be the same.

Ian

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Thanks. I’m working with Neutol WA 1+9 on MGFB warmtone and MCC110. I’ll try shorter Dev times.

Neutol WA is almost identical to how I mix ID-78, the difference is it uses more Hydroxide and less Potassium Carbonate.

Ian

ericdan said:

Thanks. I’m working with Neutol WA 1+9 on MGFB warmtone and MCC110. I’ll try shorter Dev times.

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Fomatone responds very well to generous exposure, short dev times too - even better than MGWT in my experience.

I've read that Ilford Bromophen gives a warm tone with MGWT. Has anyone here tried that combination? Someone recently gifted me with three boxes of Bromophen and I'd like to give it a try.

Lachlan Young said:

Fomatone responds very well to generous exposure, short dev times too - even better than MGWT in my experience.

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Awesome. I have a box of Fomatone too. Been using this for Lith only but might as well give it a try. I don’t find the base that different from MGFB WT.