ILFORD ULF Make : Poor Level Of Orders [But Ilford comes through in the end!]

[Dave Wooten]

or have the distributor and retailers, order and keep a supply in stock. Money up front of course insures the present today need and posts no risk for the chosen distributor or retailer-inventory totally purchased before order and not shelved........A supplier ,having product at the ready for order, encourages one to shoot more and maybe not get in the hoarding-preservation mind set. It would be great if the retailers would step up and fill the order keeping the supply on hand.

Demand inventory works well if product can be delivered in a short time, i.e. a week.

Being able to get a box of film at a time-I could easily shoot 10 boxes in a 12 month period....paying as I go.....purchasing $3,000.00 in a one pay up front, forces me to use sparingly the few boxes I can afford to buy on the annual order...I know some photographers were able to purchase thousands of dollars worth of film on the first order...possibly they helped fill the initial order and still have a freezer full of film? Don t know..
does this make sense to anyone else?

 

[Rick Olson]

I ordered two boxes of 7 x 17 Ilford FP-4 film during this run to participate and help the cause. Not a lot you say? Well ... I don't even own a 7 x 17 camera (yet). This is my goal and important enough for me to make this contribution, both to support Ilford's effort with the ULF community and to assist in mine. Everytime I open my freezer, I see those two big white boxes sitting there waiting for me. The anticipation of bigger and better things to come keeps me thinking positive.

THANKS SIMON AND ILFORD!!

Rick

 

[jgjbowen]

I really find it hard to blame the dealers or to ask them to stock ULF film on the hope that someone will purchase it prior to it expiring. Here in Richmond VA (population > 1 million) the dealers don't even stock 4x5 film. How can we expect them to stock various sizes of ULF?

 

[Curt]

I was going to reply to Bob but you just aren't worth the effort. I said in an earlier threat that I was using Ilford 120 Pan F and found it to be superior to what I was using. I found out that Ilford because of financial and motivational reasons won't push for a quality slow speed film in any sheet size. So be it. I will continue to use Adox/Efke and will support those retailers who sell it. I will say that I will continue to use Ilford 120 but that's it. The paper is too expensive and not that impressive. In my opinion Ilford is not that rounded. They could be a complete source for film, paper and chemicals but they will not, by their own words. In a way that's good because the competition for other manufactures to continue in the market place is going to stronger than ever. Ilford will never be a whole company like Kodak was. It will be a vanity company producing only a few parts of the entire picture.

 

[Dave Wooten]

I really find it hard to blame the dealers or to ask them to stock ULF film on the hope that someone will purchase it prior to it expiring. Here in Richmond VA (population > 1 million) the dealers don't even stock 4x5 film. How can we expect them to stock various sizes of ULF?

True they don t stock it, but if they did I would purchase it. What I am getting at is if it is available more possibly would be used. It is easier for me financially, to purchase and use film on a monthly basis than it is to pay up front for annual supply....this greatly inhibits the amount of film I can purchase and use.

 

[jgjbowen]

Dave,

Hopefully J&C will stock some Ilford ULF in various sizes.

 

[Ole]

I was going to reply to Bob but you just aren't worth the effort. I said in an earlier threat that I was using Ilford 120 Pan F and found it to be superior to what I was using. I found out that Ilford because of financial and motivational reasons won't push for a quality slow speed film in any sheet size. So be it. ...

This is getting tiresome.

Pan F+ will not be produced in sheets because the emulsion is incompatible with the sheet film substrate. If they were to make a 50 ISO sheet film, it would have to be a completely different emulsion, so it wouldn't be Pan F+.

There's nothing "financial" or "motivational" about that.

Besides, they are testing a brand new ISO 25 emulsion which will also come in sheet sizes. Of course that won't be Pan F+, for reasons explained several dozen times.

BTW: That's an interesting misspelling you have there - Freudian slip?

 

[Curt]

I found out that Ilford because of financial and motivational reasons won't push for a quality slow speed film in any sheet size.

For the last time; A SLOW SPEED FILM

Dear All,

Thanks for all the feedback on ULF, ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology will do what it always does, listen to its customers and find a solution, which I will post in due course, I have to speak to people internally and in the US.

As to PAN F+ emulsion in sheet film, yes people are passionate about it, we would like to have it in the range and make it.... but it really is a bridge too far : Why, I will explain, once again :

1) Our sheet films are coated on a different base
2) R&D for transfer of a PAN F+ film emulsion to that base
3) Test coatings on a pilot coater
4) Manufacturing test coatings
5) Actual coating ( approx minimum 5,000 sq mtrs, minimum emulsion mix )
6) Testing
7) QC pass / fail ( if it fails its destroyed )
8) Finishing to sheet
9) Technical service : Evaluation Processing and sensitometric testing
10 ) Sales and marketing costs / translations etc
11) Cost of stockholding x 24 months

Forecasted sales ( Worldwide ) per annum all sheet film sizes between 1,000 and 1,250 sq metres ( approx 3,100 to 3,875 packets of 5" x 4" in 25 sheets ).

Within our quality regimes we could finish safely twice at a years interval from one coating, therefore we would use maximum 2,500sq metres.

Other 2,500 sq metres would be DESTROYED ( but silver recovered )

Additional cost of cold / controlled storage of parent roll


I have worked out the approx retail cost ( + or - 10% ) of 25 sheets of 5" x 4excluding any local taxes so that we would recover our total spend ( but make no profit whatsoever) in 2 years from the date of shipping the first order :

$ 113.07 per 25 sheets of 5 x

I don't give a hoot about Pan F, what I was and have been requesting is a slow speed film in sheet film, 2x3 4x5 and 5x7.
What I have been hearing is that Ilford isn't interested in a slow speed film. Now Ole comes up with a 25 speed film that Ilford supposedly has in the works, with all respect, why didn't Simon mention it in his long, why we won't/can't make a Pan F like film on sheet, thread.

I can't believe that a slow speed sheet film of 25 ISO is in the works and Simon couldn't connect that with what I was saying.

It could have gone, if Ole is correct, "We can't put Pan F on sheet film because... what he said in his comment... BUT, we have an ISO 25 speed film that will be on sheet film in all sizes comming out soon."

It looks like there is a real lack of imagination out there. You know connect the dots?

Simon: is there a slow speed sheet film in all sizes less than 8x10 including metric sizes with a speed of ISO 25 in the works or in conception or in production?

That's a simple statement have some fun with it.

Curt

 

[Simon R Galley]

Dear Curt,

Yes we have been looking at a 25 asa film based on DELTA controlled crystal growth technology, is it a full project yet ?: No , would it go to sheet film ? : No idea. We have received feedback from Apuggers on lots of product ideas ( and from our website ), I am hoping to post in the next couple of weeks an update from our marketing director.

As to your comments re our business being a 'vanity' business, and not "wholly rounded as KODAK once was" , you are absolutely entitled to your opinion, and I respect that, and your right to express it, but I maintain that some of the most memorable and important images, even World changing images.. ever made, have been made on ILFORD Film and printed on ILFORD paper, which is why it is a huge source of pride ( not vanity ) that I work for and passionately believe in this company and the products it makes.....

As to the comment re KODAK, I agree, fabulous products, fabulous history, great and innovative people, anyone who has read my posts will see that I value the choice and variety available from all manufacturers, not just my own...why... because this is what will ensure silver based photography expands and touches new exponents of the art and will bring us more advocats in the future.....

Speech over...I feel better

Regards

Simon ILFORD photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

 

[juan]

FP4 in 2 1/4 x 3 1/4 sheets would be slow enough for me.
juan

 

[Rob_5419]

Dear Simon,

there are many photographers who don't read APUG very much: the calibre of comments that this thread has attracted is one reason why I don't love APUG anymore than I should.

I only came to discover the Ilford ULF thread through the www.largeformatphotography.info thread, and then this one. Is it possible that the exposure of Ilford's ULF thread isn't reaching practitioners of ULF work? I haven't seen any notice of the ULF venture in written magazines (Viewcamera etc). I guess I'm just not sure that the internet is the best medium to express this venture although it is a good one, if Ilford have pulled 87 orders from the internet solely.

Please can someone direct me to how to place an order. I've read through the threads and I still don't understand. Do I pre-order and pay at the same time? Where?

Good luck Simon - I'm a little appalled at Kurt's reaction and I hope that ignorance can excuse his attitude especially having seen what you guys at Harmon have had to go through to pull Ilford out of the dire circumstances it was in just a few years ago. Needless to add - how Harmon have protected the future of local employees in England rather than treating employees as Kodak has done.

The quest for ULF is going to lead me to a whole plate format only - and unfortunately that is already a film niche which has been cornered by Fuji (due to the oriental support for the classical whole plate format) and the Eastern European market (Efke) - both of whom appreciate the classical format which has somewhat been abandoned in England. I would like to see a support for the whole plate format in England again, and I guess, supporting Ilford in that means I should become internet savvy and start learning how to do things like order Ilford ULF....

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

I guess I'm just not sure that the internet is the best medium to express this venture although it is a good one, if Ilford have pulled 87 orders from the internet solely.

I agree that it would have been good to have advertised the special order more widely, and perhaps it was, but just to clarify the situation--it seems that there were orders for many more than 87 boxes, but they were filled by overstock from the last special order.

Perhaps if Wynit could keep a web page listing what they have in stock and approximately how much is available, there might have been orders for that stock all along. I suppose the overriding and quite reasonable assumption most odd-sized film shooters have is that the film isn't available except by special order, and had they known that it was in fact available, they would have been purchasing it just like the regular sizes, and Wynit would learn where the consistent demand is and what sizes they can stock in addition to the prepaid orders.

 

[Curt]

Dear Curt,

Yes we have been looking at a 25 asa film based on DELTA controlled crystal growth technology, is it a full project yet ?: No , would it go to sheet film ? : No idea. We have received feedback from Apuggers on lots of product ideas ( and from our website ), I am hoping to post in the next couple of weeks an update from our marketing director.

As to your comments re our business being a 'vanity' business, and not "wholly rounded as KODAK once was" , you are absolutely entitled to your opinion, and I respect that, and your right to express it, but I maintain that some of the most memorable and important images, even World changing images.. ever made, have been made on ILFORD Film and printed on ILFORD paper, which is why it is a huge source of pride ( not vanity ) that I work for and passionately believe in this company and the products it makes.....

As to the comment re KODAK, I agree, fabulous products, fabulous history, great and innovative people, anyone who has read my posts will see that I value the choice and variety available from all manufacturers, not just my own...why... because this is what will ensure silver based photography expands and touches new exponents of the art and will bring us more advocats in the future.....

Speech over...I feel better

Thank you for the clear answer Simon. This whole thread has been over blown in my opinion. I have been a Kodak user not because I choose them but because I went to Brooks Institute of Photography and Art Center College of Design, nearly thirty years ago now. I have a degree in Photography and Graphic Design and these schools required, not suggested, that certain materials be used. At Brooks we started off with Kodak Super XX film in 4x5 size. No other brand was to be used. Brooks was a "Kodak" school at the time. A slow speed film at the time was of course Panatomic X.
Currently only Adox/Efke has a slow speed sheet film. I hoped some day that Ilford would make a slow speed film similar to the older films but of much higher quality than the Adox etc. films. That's why I pushed so hard to get the idea across. It's not a matter of US or GB as I think some have taken personally but not outright admitted it. There is no hidden agenda or animosity here. I was taught by a tough taskmaster who believed that good could be great if enough work, thought and effort was made. That's all this is about, having a fine sheet film for enlarging.

Regards,
Curt

 

[Dave Wooten]

I agree that it would have been good to have advertised the special order more widely, and perhaps it was, but just to clarify the situation--it seems that there were orders for many more than 87 boxes, but they were filled by overstock from the last special order.

Perhaps if Wynit could keep a web page listing what they have in stock and approximately how much is available, there might have been orders for that stock all along. I suppose the overriding and quite reasonable assumption most odd-sized film shooters have is that the film isn't available except by special order, and had they known that it was in fact available, they would have been purchasing it just like the regular sizes, and Wynit would learn where the consistent demand is and what sizes they can stock in addition to the prepaid orders.

This is a good suggestion!

 

[pelerin]

<SNIP>

Please can someone direct me to how to place an order. I've read through the threads and I still don't understand. Do I pre-order and pay at the same time? Where?

Hi,
Details, including a list of dealers, are included in the first post in this thread: (there was a url link here which no longer exists) Payment details and price would be up to the dealer with whom you chose to place your order. Full disclosure: I work for one of the dealers.
Best.
Celac

 

[copake_ham]

Only reason for a non-ULF'er like me to post here is to let you folks know that Simon has come up with a "Solution" that will make you all very happy.

See his new thread and have fun folks!

 

[Tom Stanworth]

Curt,

There is a funadental principle here..........

If Ilford does not make money WE, the photographic community, will lose them and their products. I might want a lot of things. I might go so far as to request them, but thats as far as it goes. The actual demand for a V slow film in sheet is pretty low I would imagine. When 10x8 Fp4+ is available, there really is not that ,much need for an ISO 25 film in sheet!

Simon G has worked very hard to engage and accommodate us in our requests and I feel that if anything, we have let HIM down with a low level of orders for ULF film; one which seems to fall well below the real demand.

Ilford does not owe any of us anything. They are a business. There is no point comparing Ilford now with what Kodak used to be. no point at all.
Lets not bite the hand that feeds us and fully support what can be done!

I am astounded that these ULF sizes are still supported and we should be grateful for that. If you shoot 5x4 and want to print huge prints, there is always Delta 100 which in the righ dev is VERY fine grained. If this is not the look you are after, by all means buy a 10x8 camera and shoot Fp4+....and develop in perceptol if you like! You could even do what Clyde Buthcer does and enlarge 16x12 or whatever it is!

Its like being angry that Ford does not produce a 7 litre engine for the Ford Focus! If I want that you have to drive a Viper!

The fact that we are providing such direct input for Ilford (outside of the normal supply and demand feedback) is remarkable I think!!!!!!

 

[dianna]

I read in another thread that Ilford would be including 3x4 sheet film with the ULF - if that's true, I want to order. That size does not seem to be available anywhere else now that J&C is gone. If Ilford will be selling 3x4, please post info on how to order...

 

[Oren Grad]

Dianna, Ilford is taking orders once a year for these special sizes. The order period for this year is already closed. The US distributor, Wynit, may end up with some extra stock on some of the other sizes. Unfortunately, it appears that 3x4 was lost in the shuffle this time as word did not get out soon enough, and I believe that there were not enough expressions of interest in advance for Ilford to justify the expense of preparing a cutting mask and setting up a stock number for that size.

 

[Simon R Galley]

Dear All,

Regarding ' Next Year ' or 'next make' of ULF , I have read all your comments and suggestions and will try and ensure we have it run smoother, one obvious one is that we communicate to the whole ULF community better, we cannot do with advertising, but Press Realeases should be OK ( minimal cost )

Anyway, I will keep you all informed

Regards & again, many thanks to all those who ordered and value ILFORD ULF film.

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited:

 

[PBrooks]

I missed the pre-order, as I didn't think I would be able to afford or get a 14x17 so fast. But, I was able to place adds and find someone with one box to spare and he told me to call Galzers, they told me they could get some more FP4, that would be fine but I'm hoping there was an over run on the HP5. Any chance in that? Thank you again for helping us.
Phillip

 

[MarcoA]

Dear All,

Regarding ' Next Year ' or 'next make' of ULF , I have read all your comments and suggestions and will try and ensure we have it run smoother, one obvious one is that we communicate to the whole ULF community better, we cannot do with advertising, but Press Realeases should be OK ( minimal cost )

Anyway, I will keep you all informed

Regards & again, many thanks to all those who ordered and value ILFORD ULF film.

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited:

I would certainly not mind to have my name and email inserted in a mailing list managed by Ilford, so that we can be notified when the next ULF run takes place. This would be _on_top_ of press releases. I think that overcommunicating in this specific instance is perfectly OK: customers won't complain, I am pretty sure

 

[jonw]

I would certainly not mind to have my name and email inserted in a mailing list managed by Ilford, so that we can be notified when the next ULF run takes place. This would be _on_top_ of press releases. I think that overcommunicating in this specific instance is perfectly OK: customers won't complain, I am pretty sure

I totally concur! I hope Ilford will add my email address for notices on placing future ULF orders. I was able to place an order through Freestyle for several boxes of 11x14, but have not received it yet. Has anyone received anything on their order? Thanks. Jon

 

[Rob Skeoch]

I'm one of the Ilford ULF dealers supplying the product through Wynit in Canada.

I've received some of the not so popular sizes like 7x17 over the last few weeks but it's hard to know if they're part of the new production or just film that was already in the pipeline.

I haven't received any of the real hard to find sizes like 10x12 or 16x20.

I'm not sure 11x14 is part of the ULF program.... since it's listed with Ilford as a regular stock item. I have been able to get HP5 in 11x14 when needed, and keep a box in stock.

I'll be talking with Wynit today so I'll post any new information I might get.

-Rob

 

[Rob Skeoch]

I talked with Wynit today about the ULF shipment and all they could say was "pretty soon".
They did have dates for....

FP4 in 7x17 .... end of June
FP4 11x14 ... next week
FP4 5x12 ... July 6

Those were the only ones I asked about.

-Rob