Ilford: State of the Photo World ?

Photo Engineer said:

Ian;

I understand about this, but I wanted to make a clear distinction between it and Ilford Digital papers which are intended for digital inks. Thanks though. It just emphasized what I was trying to point out.

PE

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There's a lot of confusion here. These Papers are for Optical Digital exposure, not Inkjet printers.

Ilford use the RC version in a specially modified Fuji Frontier minilab system, at Mobberley, for their commercial B&W service, the paper is processed as a normal Silver halide print. The FB versions once developed & fixed behave exactly like any other FB paper, so can be toned, glazed etc.

Only Ron (PE) & Patrick (Gainer) have mentioned Inkjet.

On the recent Ilford factory tour we saw the system and talked to the technician who runs it. The quality of the B&W images is exceptionally high, and not even remotely similar to the previous generations of semi-automated machine processed B&W prints that many of us remember from our youth.

Ilford told us they hope there will soon be other similar B&W system around the world.

Ian

Just to clarify a bit more.

The digital printers output a somewhat bell shaped light emission pattern and each pass has overlap. This would normally create lines in the print, but the papers are adjusted in emulsion characteristics to allow the edge preflash and allow the bands to be closely spaced for uniformity. The bell shape is there for both LED and Laser type printing heads but differs in profile.

This is the basic difference in an analog paper used in "digital" printing. Without this adjustment in the emulsion, the paper would act like it had been pre-flashed by the adjacent row of exposure.

The emulsions are also adjusted for extremely high intensity, short exposure times. In other words, a different High Intensity Reciprocity Failure profile.

So, these papers are quite different in their properties. Normal papers will probably show some banding when used in either LED or Laser printers, but the Digital papers will work at normal exposures albeit with different properties.

PE

Photo Engineer said:

So, these papers are quite different in their properties. Normal papers will probably show some banding when used in either LED or Laser printers, but the Digital papers will work at normal exposures albeit with different properties.

PE

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We were told that these digital B&W papers couldn't be used for conventional use because of the high emulsion speeds, the exposure times are too short to control with conventional bulbs. The papers also have to be handled in darkness. Of course I'm sure with a hefty ND filter you could get around this.

Simon Galley replied to a question about this here recently, I think some Digital paper was being auction on eBay.

However the Digital papers Ron (PE) is referring to are for colour minilabs, they have a higher silver content than conventional colour papers, and as he says are designed for laser print heads.

Ian

Ian;

Actually, the speeds are not high for some of them, as the light is so intense! The speed is high, of course, but the intensity of the light kind of normalizes everything. It is not that bad, but you are right. Exposures might range in the 1" - 2" interval at f22 on an 8x10 from a 35mm.

But this all emphasizes the point that there are two types of "digital" papers out there. One is inkjet digital and the other is true analog intended for digital light output. Both are called "digital" papers by some without realizing the confusion this can cause. I did not help by making an unclear post above.

PE

Eek! My apologies, for causing any confusion!

I was referring to the SILVER BASED Digital FB paper - as used in the LIGHTJET type digital printer, developed in the UK by Illord Photo and Steve MacLeod at Metro Imaging - not the Ilford baryta INKJET paper. I'm used to referring to Ilford for silver products and Harman for the same companies digital products. "Ilford" brand digital products are, as I'm sure you all know, produced in Switzerland by the erstwhile parent company.

Please do not attempt to wet or glaze either Harman or Ilford INKJET products.

Jerry

Jerry;

It was clear to most of us, but I confounded everyone by a very very poor post which Ian corrected with his usual diplomacy. There is no harm done.

PE

Dear Jerry,

Just a little correction :

ILFORD Imaging Switzerland GmbH who make ILFOCHROME products and ILFORD Branded inkjet products are owned by the OJI Paper Company of Japan and have no link with HARMAN technology Limited.

Kind Regards

Simon. ILFORD Photo / HARMASN technology Limited :

ILFORD Imaging Switzerland GmbH who make ILFOCHROME products and ILFORD Branded inkjet products are owned by the OJI Paper Company of Japan and have no link with HARMAN technology Limited.

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Hi Simon,

Which is why I said "erstwhile" parent company. Forgive me if I referred to that, er, can of worms too delicately....

While you're at it. Can the, Silver Based, Fibre Paper for Digital Output be glazed after processing?
I know that it doesn't really respond to selenium/gold toning, but glazing is a practical way of extending
the apparent tonal depth. (Not that I'd attempt it on a print 54 inches wide...).

Regards
Jerry

Photo Engineer said:

Ian;

Actually, the speeds are not high for some of them, as the light is so intense! The speed is high, of course, but the intensity of the light kind of normalizes everything. It is not that bad, but you are right. Exposures might range in the 1" - 2" interval at f22 on an 8x10 from a 35mm.

But this all emphasizes the point that there are two types of "digital" papers out there. One is inkjet digital and the other is true analog intended for digital light output. Both are called "digital" papers by some without realizing the confusion this can cause. I did not help by making an unclear post above.

PE

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If you refer to the papers for Lightjet type printers as Lightjet/Frontier papers, and the inkjet type papers as inkjet papers or Giclée papers then there is no confusion. There really is no such thing as digital paper. Although when I think of computer paper I still think of the 8½ x 14 paper with the double tractor feeds we fed through the IBM 3800 Laser printers at work in mid 1980's. Man, those printers were fast, you wouldn't want a photo off one though, graphic output was kind of crude, but then what do you want with a printer that consumes about 6 kilometres of paper in an hour.

I do wonder though whether the Lightjet/Frontier machines are long for this world, some form of ink based printer will probably take over, fewer chemicals and less water consumption, less chance that some pimple faced kid will fubar the chemical mixing process. Thinking about it, one long inkjet print head the width of the paper and separate heads for each colour, would probably do it. It's tough to tell the difference between some of the inkjet based photo papers and traditional chemical photo paper.

This might actually be a good thing for analog colour photography, as materials manufacturers don't need to deal with high speed, high volume printing.










You learn something new everyday though, I never knew there was a difference between Lightjet/Frontier paper and enlarger paper....

Technically you could 'glaze' the digital FB paper...it would have to be a very, very big 'glazer' as its all mural size paper. The RC Digital is available in mural and for FRONTIERS is narrow width.

Simon ILFORD photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

Simon;

That is interesting as all of the digital papers that I have wetted have reacted adversely to the water in some fashion such as smearing, becoming gelatinous and etc. This included the Ilford (Swiss) product but not the Harman product due to size.

PE

Ah, but the secret is that you don't necessarily want to glaze mural prints.
Three, sixteen inch wide images could be printed in parallel, then cut and glazed separately.

Jerry

Simon,
I'm still hoping for my Delta 3200 in sheet film sizes. Any hope?

Take care,
Tom

Photo Engineer said:

Simon;

That is interesting as all of the digital papers that I have wetted have reacted adversely to the water in some fashion such as smearing, becoming gelatinous and etc. This included the Ilford (Swiss) product but not the Harman product due to size.

PE

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I think Simon is referring to the silver gelatin paper for LightJet/Lambda, which shouldn't react in such a fashion, since it's just regular photo paper optimized for laser exposure.

Yeah, right David. I should brand that on my forehead that "Ilford" and "Harman" papers are inkjet digital and analog digital. The nomenclature is very vague and it takes a very careful reading. Also, after that huge display comparison of digital vs analog on youtube, I kinda glitched at Simon's large size description.

Oh well. Sorry all again. Muddy waters you know.

PE