Ilford shooting itself in the foot

[Marco B]

Hi Marco,
You're comments about margins at the store make sense if the mark-up is 50%. I own a retail store. The mark-up on film and paper is not near 50%. The only items in the film industry with near this type of mark-up are filters... and that's because I stock some weird IR and Infrared Filters in weird sizes for rangefinder lenses... and they still don't cost that much. Film, paper and chemicals don't have a mark-up near 50%. At least not around here.
-Rob

Back when I worked at the camera store, mark-up on film and paper averaged between 20-25%. However, a number of people had 10% off due to art classes, photo club memberships, etc which is off the retail price. In the end, the average mark-up was 10-15%; remember that that 10-15% has to cover shipping, marketing, labour (the person at the counter), rent of the store, heat/power/water, dead loss, etc. Asking photo stores to reduce their mark-up is unrealistic, especially as any unsold, out-dated product is the stores responsibility and not the manufacturer.

I realize my 50% markup may not have been realistic. But still... this doesn't change anything about what I wanted to say:

A percentage is a percentage. It means when the product is twice as expensive when its sold, the shop owner will get twice the money.

Now 5 years ago or so, it used to be that shop owners were able to cover all of their costs and the risks you pose (rent of the store, heat, power), by maybe earning $0.50 on each roll sold, and $10,- on each pack of photo paper sold.

Today, these same sales get you $1,- and $20,-, as the percentage markup is fixed, but prices of products sold have doubled in these five years.

Five years ago, the $0,50 and $10,- were enough to keep your business running, otherwise you wouldn't have been able to run your shop at all back than...

So, here is the question: why isn't it today, considering inflation, salaries and others "shop operating costs" haven't gone up by 100%???

Of course, I am well aware business has dwindled, but this is part of the point I am trying to make. Shops are probably trying to keep their business running and profits going by maintaining the same markup for much more expensive products (whether this is 10 or 50% doesn't matter). Some of this extra income may be warranted, as you are right the risks also increase (the potentially unsold products are also more expensive, maintaining stock is riskier), but is it all?

Anyway, the strategy is a two bladed sword, and comes at the cost of risking to lose business altogether, as the consumers to sell to are not always able to keep up with the rising cost.

Anyway, I am well aware most shops probably have little choice, and I am glad I still have a very well stocked shop relatively close by, but I sure can tell you I felt like "uhmpfffff" :confused:, when I saw the bill of 100 Euro for 10 sheets of Ilford Multigrade IV FB 50x60 cm (20x24") paper. I knew this was going to be expensive when I bought it, 50x60 cm is of course a big sheet of paper, but this price was again some 30% above what I expected before the price appeared on the cash...

 

[Marco B]

By the way, the price difference between the Netherlands and the US is absolutely shocking.

Look at these two pages, both from the same Calumet company, one in the US and one in the Netherlands though.

US: 10 sheets of Ilford Multigrade IV FB Glossy 50x60 cm (20x24") paper: $53,99
http://www.calumetphoto.com/eng/browse/categories/film/traditional-photo-paper/traditional-bw-fiber

The Netherlands: 10 sheets of Ilford Multigrade IV FB Glossy 50x60 cm (20x24") paper: 106,73 Euros!!!
http://www.calumetphoto.nl/Film:+Camera's+Doka/ZwartWit+Papier/

And the paper doesn't even have to be shipped across an ocean to get in the Netherlands!!!

Marco

 

[railwayman3]

I think anyone who places any trust in anything any business corporation says regarding their future plans is setting themselves up for disappointment. The reality is that Kodak will keep making film so long as it makes them money, as will Ilford. Ilford may want to stay in film forever, but they may well end up bankrupt if sales drop too low for them (not saying thats happening, but we've seen lots of great companies suddenly die over the years in and out of the photo industry) and kodak may make film for as long as they exist. All you can do is buy the film you like best and support the manufacturer that way. I support Kodak because their film is better suited to my work.

QUOTE]

Even Ilford are edging their bets by introducing such products as Harman inkjet papers and a "bargain" range of Kentmere brand films, also exploring other non-photographic uses of silver and coating technologies(see their website).
That impresses me that they are a well-run company...while I trust them to continue making analog products while they are profitable, it seems to me that the management are realistic and would not run themselves into bankruptcy just to be the "last man standing" in B&W.

 

[bill spears]

By the way, the price difference between the Netherlands and the US is absolutely shocking.

Look at these two pages, both from the same Calumet company, one in the US and one in the Netherlands though.

US: 10 sheets of Ilford Multigrade IV FB Glossy 50x60 cm (20x24") paper: $53,99
http://www.calumetphoto.com/eng/browse/categories/film/traditional-photo-paper/traditional-bw-fiber

The Netherlands: 10 sheets of Ilford Multigrade IV FB Glossy 50x60 cm (20x24") paper: 106,73 Euros!!!
http://www.calumetphoto.nl/Film:+Camera's+Doka/ZwartWit+Papier/

And the paper doesn't even have to be shipped across an ocean to get in the Netherlands!!!

Marco

Marco... how can this be...... thats an obscene price difference !! How do you manage to purchase at Netherlands prices ? Or do you order from abroad ?

I checked some UK suppliers for prices against USA Calumet and while the USA seems a tad cheaper than us, your Calumet distributor is nearly double !

Bill

 

[Anon Ymous]

By the way, the price difference between the Netherlands and the US is absolutely shocking.

Indeed, it is!

Look at these two pages, both from the same Calumet company, one in the US and one in the Netherlands though.

US: 10 sheets of Ilford Multigrade IV FB Glossy 50x60 cm (20x24") paper: $53,99
http://www.calumetphoto.com/eng/browse/categories/film/traditional-photo-paper/traditional-bw-fiber

The Netherlands: 10 sheets of Ilford Multigrade IV FB Glossy 50x60 cm (20x24") paper: 106,73 Euros!!!
http://www.calumetphoto.nl/Film:+Camera's+Doka/ZwartWit+Papier/

And the paper doesn't even have to be shipped across an ocean to get in the Netherlands!!!

Marco

To be fair, we need to take into account that there are different taxes involved and the US Calumet price probably doesn't include any sales tax, but the Dutch Calumet price has 19% VAT applied. So, the Dutch price (minus VAT) becomes 89,69€. Given the current exchange rates, the prices are:

US: 41,83€
NL: 89,69€

So, somehow, the same product costs more than twice (!!!) in the Netherlands, which is very close to the UK, compared to the US.

 

[Peter Black]

Another example of how things are in the UK. A box of 25 sheets of 5x7 HP5+ is £44.59 at Ag Photographic run by our very own Matt, while the identical box of film is all of £59.08 at Calumet. I'm not party to when these prices were set, but that sort of difference was in place when I was looking in December. Im guessing that Ilford is making the same money from each of these sales, so that shouldn't be a consideration when choosing a supplier!

 

[RobertV]

US: 41,83€
NL: 89,69€

So, somehow, the same product costs more than twice (!!!) in the Netherlands, which is very close to the UK, compared to the US.

One of the reasons I do not want to sell Ilford at all in the Netherlands .......
So: how to explain this to our customers?

BTW a package from the UK is nearly by the price of a package of the USA

I have already problems enough with Foma who is selling under Arista brand exclusively for the USA market.

When having an average of 50% margin on our products I would maybe already got in pension

 

[Marco B]

Marco... how can this be...... thats an obscene price difference !! How do you manage to purchase at Netherlands prices ? Or do you order from abroad ?

Bill,

Essentially three things:

- Taking a deeeeeeeeep swallow each time the bill appears on the cash... almost choking in it.
- Buying only half the stock I would in the US, and hence seeing my hobby reduced in half, and Ilford its sales to me.
- Buying Kentmere (why oh why, even though from the same Harman factory now, this IS still 30-40% cheaper, even here in the Netherlands) instead. Unfortunately, Ilford Multigrade IV FB, as one of the few real cooltone papers (at least when toned), is not easily replaced, especially for sepia and / or selenium toned print. If I need or want the look of Ilford Multigrade during toning, as I sometimes do, I just can't swap it in for Kentmere/Adox/Foma at will. As all of you also know, each paper has its own characteristics and aesthetics...

Another point is ordering abroad. While that may be viable for small paper formats, large paper packs like 20x24" just aren't easily send, if at all, abroad. In addition, the cost for shipping is often prohibitive...

By the way, the shop where I bought my pack for 100 Euro, was not the Dutch branch of Calumet. But this confirms these are more or less the "regular" prices for Ilford in the Netherlands at the moment.

 

[hpulley]

Crazy here too, stuff more expensive in Canada than the US even though our dollar is on par. Sadly for local stores it is just one cheap Purolator Ground shipping away. Now that I'm doing my own C41 development at home in addition to B&W there really isn't any reason for me to go into a store these days except in emergencies when I really need something today. Or if I just want to chat about the good old days...

 

[Anon Ymous]

...By the way, the shop where I bought my pack for 100 Euro, was not the Dutch branch of Calumet. But this confirms these are more or less the "regular" prices for Ilford in the Netherlands at the moment.

So, it has to be the Dutch distributor's markup, because the same product is priced 83,25€ in Germany, which is 69,96€ if you exclude VAT. Still expensive compared to the US price, but a bit more reasonable.

 

[Marco B]

So, it has to be the Dutch distributor's markup, because the same product is priced 83,25€ in Germany, which is 69,96€ if you exclude VAT. Still expensive compared to the US price, but a bit more reasonable.

Yes, the distribution chain in Europe and the Netherlands is part of the problem, as was confirmed by the shop owner when I had a talk with him. Actually, the distribution chain saw some major changes and collapses during the past 5 years when prices almost doubled here in the Netherlands.

Ironically, the Netherlands boasts itself as the "distribution" country of Europe, with Rotterdam as one of the biggest harbours, and good infrastructure.

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if all Ilford stock destined for Europe enters through the Netherlands (but maybe its France), first...

If our dreamed/myth "trade country reputation" was anything to go by, and considering our negligible distance to the UK, we actually should have the lowest Ilford prices of Europe... we don't!

 

[RobertV]

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if all Ilford stock destined for Europe enters through the Netherlands (but maybe its France), first...

Via Belgium and de Beukelaer is distributor and partial owner for BeNeLux AND Germany and they have some part for France too. So they can just ask what they want for this big sales area.

 

[Antonov]

Fuji is leaving the business as we speak, and Kodak is too, eventually. Film isn't a commodity anymore. It's likely going to be a premium price product, reflecting a niche market.

What a load of cr*p! I can't be polite, when I read posts like these. Can you backup your thesis with arguments?!

But what other companies other than Ilford allows special orders of custom cut film?

I think Efke does.

And, concerning title of this topic and similar in general. I really don't understand what are you people bragging about? I have 100+ rolls of film in 120 and 135 format, in my fridge at this time ( I would have more if I could have space ), and I just can't imagine I would have that number of rolls 20 years ago. I think people are becoming ungrateful brats because you have everything just with couple of clicks with your finger. I would really like to put all you braggers in 1990. or something like that, or in some Third World country. Then you would be maybe more grateful and realized how lucky you are and how things are good.

Oh, and those visions of world without film, last man standing and that sort of stuff. Oh boy. I mean, does ANY industry in the world has so many Nostradamuses like film industry? There is no industry or craft in history of the world that became extinct even if its today hand made in small manufactures. I come on this forum to rest my eyes from that digital cr*p discussion from other photo forums and NO I have to read pretty similar nonsense here. Jesus.

 

[railwayman3]

Excellent post, Antonov....makes you think.

I've had five friends, mostly in their 40's and 50's, who have gone on to the great darkroom in the sky in the past two years, while several others have been seriously ill and unable to work or pursue their hobbies....it puts a bit of wingeing about the loss of Kodachrome, or the price of film, into perspective. I'm just thankful that I've had health and sufficient time and money to pursue my photography.

I'm sure that most photographic products, B&W certainly, will not become totally extinct...there may even be some revival, I know of three young people, two of whom are art students, who are keen on using the possibilities of analog work. Color may be more difficult in small quantities, but surely small-scale pilot machines might be adapted? And there's the options of DIY and alternative processes...the latter seem to be appealing to artists as well as pure photographers.

If all else fails, we could go digital....we on APUG because we don't like it and see many disadvantages, but it's an option. If all else totally fails, I'll buy a box of artists paints and paper for my "artistic" endeavours and a digital point-and-shoot for my memories of days with the family. If I have my health, I can live with that.

 

[Antonov]

Excellent post, Antonov....makes you think.

I'm sure that most photographic products, B&W certainly, will not become totally extinct...there may even be some revival, I know of three young people, two of whom are art students, who are keen on using the possibilities of analog work.

railwayman3, I'm 28 years old and I do only and exclusevely analog photography. Same goes for my friend who is 33 years old and also does exclusevely analog phogotraphy ( he got infected from me, ha ha ). And we live in eastern, poorest, ravaged by war, part of our small country. I mean, if you can find that kind of individuals in small cities of small countries, imagine how many people like us are there in much bigger cities and countries. When I joined APUG it had cca 20 000 members, 2 and 1/2 years later its membership doubled and now counts 46 558 members as we speak! There is no need to be pessimistic.

Color may be more difficult in small quantities, but surely small-scale pilot machines might be adapted? And there's the options of DIY and alternative processes...the latter seem to be appealing to artists as well as pure photographers.

Nothing is impossible.

If all else fails, we could go digital....we on APUG because we don't like it and see many disadvantages, but it's an option. If all else totally fails, I'll buy a box of artists paints and paper for my "artistic" endeavours and a digital point-and-shoot for my memories of days with the family. If I have my health, I can live with that.

Why in the world you go digital if you can stay analog?

 

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

200 feet of Kodak 5222 Double X Movie film costs 30 dollars , it makes .45 dollars per roll. Google short cut 5222 and you will find many sellers. It is 15 times or more cheaper than the ilford and it has a exceptional quality.
In my believe , it all depends quality of your camera and lens and your photography
I will buy a Leica R3 with a Telyt this summer and this camera deserves every cost of film and as I say I buy film 15 times cheaper than you.
I am feeling that I dont need to support Rolls Royce expenses of the crown

 

[railwayman3]

railwayman3, I'm 28 years old and I do only and exclusevely analog photography. Same goes for my friend who is 33 years old and also does exclusevely analog phogotraphy ( he got infected from me, ha ha ). And we live in eastern, poorest, ravaged by war, part of our small country. I mean, if you can find that kind of individuals in small cities of small countries, imagine how many people like us are there in much bigger cities and countries. When I joined APUG it had cca 20 000 members, 2 and 1/2 years later its membership doubled and now counts 46 558 members as we speak! There is no need to be pessimistic.

Excellent...that's wonderful and inspiring to know. I've actually visited Croatia twice in recent years, and before that to the old Yugoslavia...it's a lovely country, great people...with honest and genuine values....and it was good to see the progress which is being made since the bad years.

.
Why in the world you go digital if you can stay analog?

I'll only go digital if, and when, the very last analog product has disappeared, and I'm sure that won't be in my time, or in my children's or grandchildren's time!

--

 

[hpulley]

...There is no industry or craft in history of the world that became extinct even if its today hand made in small manufactures....

Getting back to the topic at hand I guess the question is, could Kodachrome be hand crafted by small manufacturers? Could there be buggy whip makers for Kodachrome? I live near several Mennonite communities so I regularly drive by wagons on the roads. Someone is still making wagons, wagon wheels, whips, and all the other traditional stuff they use; probably them making it themselves. Is Kodachrome too complicated for the photographic community to make on its own?

 

[Antonov]

Excellent...that's wonderful and inspiring to know. I've actually visited Croatia twice in recent years, and before that to the old Yugoslavia...it's a lovely country, great people...with honest and genuine values....and it was good to see the progress which is being made since the bad years.

Thank you.

You are welcome in our country any time!

I'll only go digital if, and when, the very last analog product has disappeared, and I'm sure that won't be in my time, or in my children's or grandchildren's time!

Don't worry about disappearence.

Getting back to the topic at hand I guess the question is, could Kodachrome be hand crafted by small manufacturers? Could there be buggy whip makers for Kodachrome? I live near several Mennonite communities so I regularly drive by wagons on the roads. Someone is still making wagons, wagon wheels, whips, and all the other traditional stuff they use; probably them making it themselves. Is Kodachrome too complicated for the photographic community to make on its own?

Well, topic is not Kodachrome, but come on people, if a group of enthusiasts made STEAM locomotive in 21th century, then what are we talking about?

 

[railwayman3]

Getting back to the topic at hand I guess the question is, could Kodachrome be hand crafted by small manufacturers? Could there be buggy whip makers for Kodachrome? I live near several Mennonite communities so I regularly drive by wagons on the roads. Someone is still making wagons, wagon wheels, whips, and all the other traditional stuff they use; probably them making it themselves. Is Kodachrome too complicated for the photographic community to make on its own?

Good point....the difference might be that a skilled craftsman could make wagons, wheels and whips, given just a relatively simple workshop with inexpensive, easily available, materials and tools.

I'm sure that Kodachrome manufacture and processing is not as impossibly complex as one or two posters here would like us to believe (the basics were designed successfully in the 1930's, and I believe that PE said that the current films are 1970's technology?)..... but it certainly does require expensive machinary, esoteric skills and specialist materials, and that, I fear, is the first issue. I doubt it could be done "from scratch"...but I'm sure that Fuji, Lucky or Ilford could do it without too much technical difficulty. (Fuji coat 14-layers for C-41 film. so are no mean operators!). However, economics are the other, even bigger, issue. Sadly, that is often the deciding factor even if everything else could work.

 

[2F/2F]

What a load of cr*p! I can't be polite, when I read posts like these. Can you backup your thesis with arguments?!



I think Efke does.

And, concerning title of this topic and similar in general. I really don't understand what are you people bragging about? I have 100+ rolls of film in 120 and 135 format, in my fridge at this time ( I would have more if I could have space ), and I just can't imagine I would have that number of rolls 20 years ago. I think people are becoming ungrateful brats because you have everything just with couple of clicks with your finger. I would really like to put all you braggers in 1990. or something like that, or in some Third World country. Then you would be maybe more grateful and realized how lucky you are and how things are good.

Oh, and those visions of world without film, last man standing and that sort of stuff. Oh boy. I mean, does ANY industry in the world has so many Nostradamuses like film industry? There is no industry or craft in history of the world that became extinct even if its today hand made in small manufactures. I come on this forum to rest my eyes from that digital cr*p discussion from other photo forums and NO I have to read pretty similar nonsense here. Jesus.

Dude. It's Nostradami.

 

[RobertV]

Excellent...that's wonderful and inspiring to know. I've actually visited Croatia twice in recent years, and before that to the old Yugoslavia...it's a lovely country, great people...with honest and genuine values....and it was good to see the progress which is being made since the bad years.

I can only acknowledge that. First time was in 1987, Croatia, Zadar, Dubrovnik lovely holidays......

BTW an interesting detail is that Efke rised their prices with approx. 10% this Summer while their films are containing the most of Silver.
I like their Efke 25 version most. A nice film for working in landscapes in my M7 35mm and 667 roll film R.F. cameras.

The Efke film in Beutler 1+1+10
7:00 minutes
M7+Summarit 2,5/75mm

 

[Antonov]

Dude. It's Nostradami.

Not does it matter much, but as far as I know, plural of "Nostradamus" is "Nostradamuses".

I can only acknowledge that. First time was in 1987, Croatia, Zadar, Dubrovnik lovely holidays......

BTW an interesting detail is that Efke rised their prices with approx. 10% this Summer while their films are containing the most of Silver.
I like their Efke 25 version most. A nice film for working in landscapes in my M7 35mm and 667 roll film R.F. cameras.

Yep, lovely film, I used it also for 90% of my B&W work.

 

[2F/2F]

Not does it matter much, but as far as I know, plural of "Nostradamus" is "Nostradamuses".

Yes, it is. I was JOKING!

 

[Antonov]

Yes, it is. I was JOKING!

I thought so, but I wasn't sure, he he.