Ilford Rapid Fixer at 1:9?

kchoquette

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Hey everyone,

I just saw on B&H's site that it's possible to use their rapid fixer at a 1:9 dilution instead of the standard 1:4. I definitely would like to give this a shot, as I tend to go through fixer pretty quickly at 1:4, but I'm curious, will the fixing times change? I'd imagine they would, but not sure how much time to add?

Thanks!
 

Photo Engineer

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Yes, all fix times for film will change. You must do a clearing test for the films you are using and then use 2X the time to clear as the minimum fix time for that product.

PE
 

Kyle M.

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I use Ilford Rapid Fixer diluted 1:9, I shoot primarily Kodak T-Max 100 in 120 and fix times for a fresh batch seem to run around the 3-4 minute mark. I'm a bit of a cheap skate so I don't pitch it till times go past 15 minutes. I mix in 1 liter batches and I've gotten close to 50 rolls out of a batch. I also had one 1 liter batch sit for 6 months in a brown plastic bottle, when I came back it was still good. IMO Ilford Rapid Fixer is good stuff, I like it alot better than the kodak fixers.
 
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kchoquette

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Interesting! I've always used a time of 5 minutes across the board for all films and have done pretty well. Never once gotten fogged or pink negatives when using Ilford. I'm wondering, do you get the same quality negative with a fixing time that short?
 

MartinP

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Have a read through the technical document for this product, available HERE on the IlfordPhoto website. There are benefits or disadvantages depending on exactly what you are fixing and the method used for washing.

The IlfordPhoto site has a lot of useful information on their materials and silver-based photography in general. Well worth a browse.
 

cliveh

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Are you talking about film or paper? As I use 1:4 for film and 1:9 for paper, but with Amfix.
 

Kyle M.

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Yes I've got good quality negs with a three and half minute fix time, but only the first couple of rolls, then times start to increase. Honestly with T-Max 100 I used to always get pink negatives regardless of fix time, but it would come out in my final wash. When I switched to Rodinal I noticed that the pinkish color was coming out when I dumped the developer, no pink negatives since.
 
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kchoquette

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Sorry everyone, I definitely should have specified I'm talking about film!

@Kyle M.
Yeah, I've noticed that T-Max has a pretty pink base, as does Tri-X (closer to purple, but whatever). I don't think I'll be using Rodinal with the HP5 Plus I've got, due to some serious grain clumping, compared to other developers. Still, I noticed I didn't get much of a change with my negatives during the final wash, I know friends of mine have, but I never was so lucky.
 

Kyle M.

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I used to do a 10 minute final wash with T-Max, fill the tank, then 1 minute of inversions, then let sit 1 minute, repeat 5 times. Soon after I came across a fellow apug user who's name I fail to remember who was using a modified version of the Ilford wash method. 5,10,20,30,20 inversions, I've been using this since about January and so far I'm very happy with it. Another little trick I learned on here helps with my hard water, I was getting terrible stains on the base side of my negatives that were showing up in my scans. At the advice of a fellow APUG'er I started filling the tank with rubbing alcohol and doing 30 seconds of inversions after my final wash, then hanging the negatives to dry. No spots since and my negatives are dry and scannable in 2-3 hours, rather than 5-8. I still get some minor spots visible on base but they don't show up in my scans so I'm not gonna run out and buy any photo-flo or perma wash.
 

37th Exposure

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Really?


Are you sure you want to work the fix that far? One liter of Ilford Rapid Fix (I use it too) can only do 24 120 rolls maximum according to Ilford, and that's if you use it 1:4. According to Kodak, Tmax films will exhaust your fixer faster than other films, so that same liter of Ilford might only yield about half that many rolls. Bad fix will still clear film, giving you a false sense you are getting something for nothing. I pay about $50 for a five liter jug of Ilford Rapid Fix concentrate after shipping. Ilford says this will fix about 600 rolls of 120 film at 1:4 dilution. That is less than ten cents per roll! A roll of Tmax in 120 costs about five bucks! Do you really want to risk your images just to save quite literally a few cents?
 

JW PHOTO

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Good point and I find myself being a little to tight with chemicals sometimes. I know I shouldn't push them, but I do. Penny wise, pound foolish I guess! JW
 

Doremus Scudder

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I use Ilford Rapid Fix at the 1+9 dilution for film occasionally, when I have just a few sheets to do. I've tested this, and it works just fine, but the fixing times need to be extended and the capacity of the fixer is reduced. The clip test is your friend here. Test in fresh fix and note the time. Clip-test before every batch. Toss the fix when the clearing time is getting close to 2x the time in fresh fixer. I try to use it only to about 1.5x as a safety margin.

As for fixing time, I fix film for a minimum of 3x the clearing time tested just before the batch. Film is on a waterproof base, so extra time, within reason, will not hurt. I usually fix 320Tri-X for 6 minutes to get rid of the pink coupling dyes. TMY even longer. Both get many more than 3x the clearing time. I use the clip test primarily to test for exhaustion.

Don't misunderstand me here though; I'm not advocating using the 1+9 as a standard procedure; just when you have a very low volume that needs to be done right away. The best and most economical way of fixing film is to collect enough film to use a two-bath fixing regime and the 1+4 dilution. But, you need a bit of film to do this economically. It takes about twice through the change-the-second-to-the-first-bath cycle to get the most out of the fixer.

Note, I never save fixer for extended periods of time like some do; I try to match the amount and dilution of my fixer to the amount of film I have for a specific batch. If I were shooting roll film and developing a couple of rolls every few days, I would likely keep a liter of fix 1+4 going till it reached exhaustion (clip test!) and would never use 1+9. For tray processing sheets, especially using two-bath fixing, saving fixer just isn't practical for me.

I've got several fixing regimes based on the number of sheets I have to develop so I can toss the fix after the session. For just a couple of sheets, 500ml of fixer at 1+9 is fine with extended fixing times. I'm sure I don't use it to capacity; not even close, but I don't toss as much active fixer as if I'd used the 1+4 dilution. For an intermediate number of films, I'll sometimes use the 1+9 dilution in a two-bath regime. Again, I'm wasting fix, but less than if I'd used the stronger dilution. Ideally, I try to collect enough sheets to make using two-bath fix at 1+4 economical. 36 sheets is a great number for me; it uses the fix well and is three batches in my film washer.

Best,

Doremus
 

Thomas Bertilsson

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I use 1+4 for both prints and negatives with Ilford Hypam, which is essentially the same product as Ilford Rapid Fixer.

For film I do the clip test that is mentioned above. When my clearing time exceeds 1 minute it's time to change it and it goes to silver recovery.

For prints I use a two bath regimen. I keep a gallon of 1+4 that is my 1st fixer. 2nd bath is always mixed fresh, usually 2 liters. At the end of a printing session I save the 2nd fixer, which becomes the 1st fixer for next session and is poured into the 1st fixer bottle for storage. The 1st fixer is used to top up the storage bottle and what's left goes to silver recovery.
The two-bath means one minute in each bath. More than two minutes in fixer makes it difficult to wash out.
 

Pat Erson

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A pro printer (he used to do work for Helmut Newton) once told me he bathed all HN's films in fixer 1+9 for ten minutes. Acc. to him it gave much better negs than 1+4...

In all honesty I always stuck to the 1+4 formula (and 12-15 135 films per liter of undiluted stuff).
 

cliveh

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How can the dilution of fix produce better negs? You can either fix for longer in a more diluted fix, but negs are either fixed or not fixed.
 

Pat Erson

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"How can the dilution of fix produce better negs?"

I completely agree wth you! But the man seemed keen on doing this : maybe the printer in him did better prints as ke knew the films had been fixed 1+9. Darkroom mojo?
 

RalphLambrecht

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That's a reallybad ideaand false economy.in fixing,strong and short is better than weak and long.I fix film and paper at filmstrength.this reduces washingand decreases the chance of the fixer to get too deep into the fibers.consider a two-bath fixing method at film strength. it's effective and economical.if cost is the issue, mix your own.
 

RalphLambrecht

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as soon as the fixer is saturated with silver salts,extending the fixing time won''t help.at that point only fresh fixer will do.hence my proposal to consider two- bath fixing.it will maximize fixer usage but always end with a fresch fixer bath.believe me, it's the most efficient way to fix film an/or paper;an option for RC;a must for FB.
 

technopoptart

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Just started developing again after a 10 year break. I fixed 2 expired 120 rolls as 1:9 and it came out fine, re-fixed 1 as 1:4 and didn't really see any difference. would under fixed film change density over time?
 

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pentaxuser

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So I think you are saying that your film fixed at 1+9 10 years ago looks no different to another film fixed 10 years ago at 1+9 but then re-fixed recently at 1+4?

So 1+9 fixing clearly lasts 10 years but no-one knows how long it will last beyond 10 years are the two conclusions I feel we can reach instantly . The only way we might get an answer to what the future holds is by asking you to do a visual check every year and tell us your findings.

It raises a number of questions: Is it the case that film fixing at 1+9 will inevitably lead to deterioration at some point beyond 10 years and if so at what time interval?

One argument says that it will because if it didn't, then Ilford would simply give extended times for 1+9 films. It does for paper but makes no mention of any other dilution for film except 1+4

If an extended fix time for 1+9 in the case of films is not an effective alternative then it indicates to me that Ilford believes there a serious flaw or possibly even a fatal flaw in using fix at 1+9 for film but what that defect in fix at 1+9 for film is, I have no idea.

There are a number of courses open here to arrive at a definitive answer. Use this thread to get a range of answers from Photrio users. This will be both quick as it has been already and slow in that the thread may never end or at least take a long time to deviate from the thread's key question. The replies may contain a range of answer from it is fatal to use 1+9 to it is OK and some may even give you the ages of their films that are still OK after x years, y years z years etc

Some may even give the chemical explanation as to why 1+9 is fatal or very dangerous The whole thing can be fun and absorbing or be confusing and have the added problem of making two or more members draw daggers when until the thread arrived they were blissfully unaware they had an enemy. It's a bit like a variation on the Jim Reeves' record "A stranger's just a friend you do not know"

On balance it were me I'd be inclined to write to Ilford and ask the specific question and the reasons for 1+4 only being mentioned.

I for one would be interested in the answer.

NB When you give us Ilford's answer it may still extend the discussion but then we will all at least know Ilford's answer.

pentaxuser
 

pentaxuser

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technopoptart said:
No i just did this 2 days ago.
Click to expand...
Yes I realise that you did it only two days ago but your answer may not be in direct response to me. I am not sure if your intention is to write to Ilford or just let the thread run here on Photro. Your post raises interesting questions for me

pentaxuser
 

koraks

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pentaxuser said:
Some may even give the chemical explanation as to why 1+9 is fatal or very dangerous
Click to expand...
I couldn't think of one, apart from the risk that some people may try to fix delta or tmax films in 1+9 for just a few minutes based on evidence/advice that this works ok for regular films like fp4+, trix and whathaveyou.
I often use and have used dilute fixer up to even 1+14 for films like fomapan and rollei rpx. I noted no problems with this as long as adequate fixing time and capacity is observed. Currently I use C41 fixer diluted 1+14 one shot for 4 minutes on the kind of films mentioned. Will my negatives last for decades? Probably, yes, given the effectiveness of fixing as established uing clip tests to determine clearing time... (heed the legacy of PhotoEngineer!)
 
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