Ilford Quality Control - A Question

I have a question about Ilford Quality Control, which I have to confess I'm somewhat embarrassed to ask.

The question is this, are Ilford having difficulties with their quality control?

The reason I ask is that I am currently studying a BA(Hons) in Photography at a West Midlands (UK) University and our lecturers have advised us against using Ilford film products for this reason. Where they get their information from I can't say. I am assuming they are totally wrong in this statement (and I hope I can correct the evil of their ways!!)

I use 100% Ilford paper and chemicals and around 80% film, 120 Pan F and 4" x 5" Delta 100 (the other 20% is made up of Fuji ACROS). I have never had any complaints, although recently whilst shooting same Pan F the final developed negs were rather dense, I have put this down to an error on my part when making the exposure or using old developer (which I know I did - being a tight student!).

I was just curious as to whether anyone else had heard of such a question being raised and also really to give me piece of mind. I don't intend to stopping using Ilford products because of what, I truly hope, is a throw away comment.

Apologies for posting this thread so do be gentle in your replies.

Cheers

John.

I would tell your lecturers to stop talking from their rear ends. I only use Ilford film and with the exception of Rodinal I only use Ilford chemistry. Never had a problem yet.

John,

I think you are just hearing the lecturers bias. I know that Simon Galley, who is a member of APUG, is deeply commited to quality at Harmon/Ilford. Why don't you PM him directly and tell him of your concerns.

i have used ilford films for 30 years with no problems except user error. (mine).

I think your lecturers have this one wrong. Ilfords standards and quality controls are first class.

Phill

Sounds like nonsense to me.

I agree totaly with Robert's comments about bias. I've shot Ilford film and used their paper for years and never had any, and I mean any, problems with quality. I would ask him to provide specific examples of the problems, if you are willing to take the heat that is. Some people in academia take great offense to having their authority questioned, and since this person holds some amount of influence over your grades it might not be the best idea to pick a fight, but if it were me, I would certainly question their opinion, especialy if they cannot back it up with evidence.

- Randy

Why not refer them to Simon Galley?

Lachlan

Hi,

Thanks for your prompt and forthright responses. I personnally have no doubt about Ilfords commitment, and I support them all the way, through buying and using their products - which in fact I do love. I knew this was the right place to ask this question, I will go back and question them as I dont have a problem picking a fight as open debate is a healthy thing.

The lecturer who raised this issue is himself a true film photographer and definately not a digital fan, had it been any of the others I would have dismissed it out of hand.

Once again thanks for your replies (and I feel I've been right told off lol)

Cheers

John

PS - Arsenal were robbed lol.

Everybody makes a mistake now and then and I'm sure Ilford has made a few during their long history. I've been using their film for over 30 years and their papers at least 6-7 years with no problems whatsoever.

Yeah, I'd ask the lecturer to be more specific.

Ask the lecturer for more details.

Cheers

Roger (www.rogerandfrances.com -- and happy Ilford user since 1966...)

As a student at this level you should be entitled, nay encouraged to ask for evidence to back up this statement from said lecturer. If he/she has such evidence then he should be taking it up with Ilford immediately.

To simply advise students to steer clear of Ilford products without incontrovertible evidence of systemic failure on Ilford's part is irresponsible. If failure it is then I am surprised we haven't heard more on this site and in the analogue photography press.

Until I hear such incontrovertible evidence, I'll rank the lecturer's statement with the famour Sunday Sport headline" World War II Bomber Found On The Moon"

pentaxuser

Roger Hicks said:

Ask the lecturer for more details.

Cheers

Roger (www.rogerandfrances.com -- and happy Ilford user since 1966...)

Click to expand...

At last - a famous lurker! Welcome!
Thanks for producing all those superb books - 'Darkroom Basics' and 'Medium and Large Format Photography' are two of the best and most informative photographic books I have ever read.

Lachlan

P.S. What's the situation as regards Paterson's chemistry at the moment?

Some of Ilford's competitors invited the lecturers out for lunch a few times?

Jan

Dear Lachlan,

Thanks for the kind words.

The last Paterson 'party line' was 'No Comment'

I'll call them again tomorrow and see if I can find out more.

Cheers,

Roger

Welcome Roger,

Your glowing review a few years ago of the Bessa R2 in B&W Photography mag was a real turning point for me. I was stuck in a rut photographically, but inspired by your review I brought the R2 and haven't looked back since!

Cheers

Mike

Hello Roger,
I was sorry when you left rff. Glad you've popped up here.

Andrew

John

Quality Control is my business. I can't mention any brands here, but you live close to where one of our products (cars) is made. A wild cat is their logo.

Nevertheless, all companies have quality problem to some degree. That why we have things like quality control (QC). Ilford's main problem is that they are not running the production continuously. They start their paper and film coating machines for a few days (if not hours) and with todays market, that gives them enough stock for weeks. That is a QC nightmare. Things like statistical QC is almost impossible in that case. This is what your teachers may have in mind.

One QC problem had recently was the cutting of paper. Trimming blades were not exchanged as maintanance protocol was indicating, which showed as emulsion delamination in wet processing. This was just prior to the new Ilford, and considering the time, maybe understandable.

Ralph,

Many thanks for your comments which I do appreciate. Our lectures do at times shoot from the hip and mostly I have found on such issues its best to ignore them to an extent and seek out the truth myself. As I use Ilford products virtually for all my monochrome work, and have never had any problems bar my own mistakes, however, it prudent to ask the question.

It has been superbly answered and as 'Andy K' so elegently put it I will tell them to stop talking out of their rear ends. I am grateful for everyones comments.

John

John, maybe 'tell' was a bit strong lol! I think 'suggest' might be better!

Andy,

No worries and thanks.

John

Be a mediator...

UKJohn said:

It has been superbly answered and as 'Andy K' so elegently put it I will tell them to stop talking out of their rear ends. I am grateful for everyones comments.

John

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Imagine how many other students these lecturers influence. Imagine how many students will intentionally avoid using Ilford products simply because they believed what their lecturers told them? Imagine how many students could influence their naive peers resulting in Ilford losing valuable sales.

Could I suggest that you approach the problem in a diplomatic way so as to keep as many folks happy as possible? Go back to the lecturers and specifically ask them what quality issues they had. Even ask them for tangible evidence of the issues. Assuming you have something credible, take those claims and evidence to Simon Galley via email and I'm willing to bet that Simon will be more than happy to provide you an some explanation. If the lecturers are happy there is no systemic problem, then strongly encourage them to convey this to those students who were misled so that the lecturers don't don't abuse their position of influence.
If however the lecturers still aren't happy with the explanation from Simon, then get back to APUG and we can decide if they are being biased or irrational and at least you can say that you tried.

regards
Peter

John

I run a small fibre printing lab since 1991 , I have been using Ilford products since 1973, The reason I use their products predomitently is the Quality Control that goes into their film and paper.
There is nothing worse than printing a large product and right smack in the middlle of production a greyed out paper batch gets into the workflow. This has never happened with Ilford products, but I have had it happen with two other manufactures of sensitized product.

Reply From ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited

Dear UKJohn,

Thanks for posting your issue on APUG, this forum is the best for getting answers, comments and the cumulative experiences from over 12,000 of the Worlds most dedicated photographers and printers and they are rarely wrong ( I find ).

Yes : ILFORD Photo have occasional QC issues, but, they are incredibly rare, rare because of the enormous effort we put into ensuring zero defects on a day by day basis ( and I think you will find all the major photo manufacturers have the same outstanding levels of quality controls in their manufacturing, finishing and distribution).

To go into our QC processes would take hours, safe to say we are an ISO 9001 registered company ( with all the audits that imposes ) we have a TQM ( Total Quality Management ) system in place we have used for years, we have QC controls from raw materials through manufacturing, finishing all the way to distribution, everything is tested and I mean everything WHY, because quality is what our business is about.

Manufacturing sensitised products is not easy, if we ever get a quality complaint it is always investigated, we have three replies to our customers

Complaint justified / Complaint not justified / Complaint ( or cause ) not certain :

I can tell you now since the formation of HARMAN technology a little less than 2.00% of quality complaints have been Complaint justified, and a little
over 3.00% have been Complaint ( or cause ) not certain. We hold unprocessed samples of every single batch of film and paper manufactured going back 5 years to ensure we have test product ( a control ) available for every batch, its why if you ever have a problem you must let us know and you must let us know the batch number.

Each month we have any quality issues explained at item level to the board, 99.99% never leave the factory gates, I also know how much waste we have every month, why waste...anything that is not A1 is destroyed and sent for silver recovery.

So I have to say I disagree with your lecturer, I am happy to speak to him personally, or when I do the next factory tour he is most welcome to attend and see our procedures in action.

Finally, students are a very large proportion of our business, we are paying for over 400 lectures to UK students ( at their actual place of study ) this year by people such as Les McLean, if you want information e.mail me with your address ( or that of your lecturer ) and I will send it to you. We will also have a Worldwide student competition so keep an eye out on our new website www.ILFORDPhoto.com.

Thanks for using ILFORD Photo products.

Finally I note a Mr.Roger Hicks ( who I read every week I may add ) contibuted to this thread and has used ILFORD since 1966...I am taking this as the official omen for this years World Cup.....I can see Beckham lifting the trophy now....


Simon Galley : ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited

Simon R Galley said:

Finally I note a Mr.Roger Hicks ( who I read every week I may add ) contibuted to this thread and has used ILFORD since 1966...I am taking this as the official omen for this years World Cup.....I can see Beckham lifting the trophy now....

Simon

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Simon. Would the omen be better if the cup was silver?

Phill