Ilford Price Increase June 1st 2011

[Curt]

Bottom line: what percent increase?

 

[Marco B]

We have done everything in our power to mitigate the increase, including even more stringent cost control, as part of these measures we also had to take the decision to reduce our workforce by 58 which is about 20.00% otherwise our price increase would have had to be much higher, this is a real human cost for the speculation in silver.

The loss in jobs due to the silver speculation is very sad to hear, especially in the light of some people outside of the analog photography industry obviously making huge profits trading the raw silver. It is a real shame the industry has to take such a hit in already precarious times. I hope though, that Ilford will also be able to breach the profit devouring vortex inbetween the Netherlands and some other countries, and the UK. If I spend my money on Ilford products, I want it to end up with Ilford, and not in some all consuming black hole...

 

[railwayman3]

How i wish for 02 prices!

FWIW, the highest price ever for silver seems to have been $49.45 on 18th Jan 1980, in the speculation at that time. So we're within range of that period.

Very sorry to hear of the job losses...it's wrong that speculators (who've probably hardly ever heard of photographic film, and care even less) can cause this sort of problem for ordinary folk's lives. I had the pleasure of going on one of the Ilford factory tours a few years ago, and you couldn't have found anywhere a nicer and more dedicated bunch of people as their staff.

 

[Colin Corneau]

Ilford's loyal to us, we need to be loyal to Ilford.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

I too cringe at the news of job losses at Ilford. It puts the silver problems into a really serious perspective to me, and I will commit to trying to find ways to continue using the product.

I think, like Colin, that loyalty is in order to reciprocate for the loyalty given to us.

I fear, though, that since the Western world has bred massive consumer markets in other parts of the world, the pressure on natural resources will just continue to increase. There are a billion folks in China, and a billion folks in India, and they want much of the same things we do in terms of material wealth, as destructive as it may be. Think about this every time you buy an iPad or a Kindle. The want for these things is what is affecting scarcity of what natural resources mother Nature is able to provide. Film and photographic paper are no exception.

 

[pentaxuser]

If a loss of 58 people is 20% of the workforce then we are looking at about 290. I may be wrong but when on the first Harman tour in June 2006 I thought I had recalled a mention of a workforce figure of somewhere near 600. If I am right then this is a massive drop and very serious.

Maybe Harman can have no influence in the distributors' slice of the revenue pie but having seen some comments from our rest of Europe and rest of world neighbours on retail prices excluding the U.S. I cannot help but wonder if the distributors' slice isn't part of the problem.

At the end of the day distributor greed, if that's the problem, can and will rebound on Harman's revenue and future


pentaxuser

 

[Roger Cole]

FWIW, the highest price ever for silver seems to have been $49.45 on 18th Jan 1980, in the speculation at that time. So we're within range of that period.

Very sorry to hear of the job losses...it's wrong that speculators (who've probably hardly ever heard of photographic film, and care even less) can cause this sort of problem for ordinary folk's lives. I had the pleasure of going on one of the Ilford factory tours a few years ago, and you couldn't have found anywhere a nicer and more dedicated bunch of people as their staff.

Not even remotely so when one considers inflation. $49.45 in 1980 is equivalent to a 2010 (most recent date with available data) price of $129.12:

http://www.westegg.com/inflation/

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

...we also had to take the decision to reduce our workforce by 58... this is a real human cost for the speculation in silver.

Will we see prices drop if silver somehow returns to $10/ounce?

Yes you would.

My personal preference in the event of a reduction in the price of raw silver would be to continue paying the higher price for finished Ilford products until after those 58 had been reemployed...

Ken

 

[Chris Livsey]

http://www.knutsfordguardian.co.uk/news/9018285.Up_to_60_jobs_to_go_at_Harman___s/

This was the local news, the personal stories behind the news are very sad. This is, working photographers obviously excepted, a "leisure/hobby not our life.

Having said that was this diversification the way to go?

http://www.knutsfordguardian.co.uk/news/8984464.Deal_paves_the_way_for_firm_expansion/

 

[waynecrider]

Maybe we all should be recovering our silver and sending it to Ilford?

 

[railwayman3]

Not even remotely so when one considers inflation. $49.45 in 1980 is equivalent to a 2010 (most recent date with available data) price of $129.12:

http://www.westegg.com/inflation/

I agree...I was just interested to see the highest ever figure, and your comparison is, of course, more meaningful. If the current price really did get up to $140-$150, I don't hold out much hope of photo materials being affordable for the average user.

Applying a similar inflation index to my own actual disposable income in 1980, I see that, on paper, I'm slightly "better-off" now than I was then, yet it's only in the last couple of years that I've began to feel that photographic materials were sudddenly becoming alarmingly expensive? This is probably just subjective, but it would be interesting to know the price of Ilford films in 1980.....I'd guess that the 1980's were a time when consumer products seemed most affordable. Just thinking aloud.

 

[railwayman3]

http://www.knutsfordguardian.co.uk/news/8984464.Deal_paves_the_way_for_firm_expansion/[/url]

Hasn't silver been known and used as a bactericide for many years? I have sportwear, socks and shoes, "containing silver for freshness", which are at least four or five years old.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Maybe we all should be recovering our silver and sending it to Ilford?

Not a bad idea. I wonder how much of a ding it would make, but it certainly couldn't hurt! We have an advertiser here on APUG, John Nanian, selling silver recovery gadgets... Maybe we can help two sponsors at once!

 

[tkamiya]

With cost of everything going up, it isn't that surprising that cost of paper will have to go up as well. Every price increase hurts me as well but I also realize, paper cost is a small part of my over-all photographic expense. I'd rather see two price increase than one big one to cover both. Or worse, what could likely be the last company remaining to go into financial strain and hurts availability in long run.

I'm going to stick with Ilford for my paper needs.

Simon - can I get some discount for this pep talk?

 

[Chris Livsey]

"Hasn't silver been known and used as a bactericide for many years?"

It has indeed been widely used for many years but as with many "historical" practices/drugs not subjected to rigorous examination, what is referred to as "evidenced based practice" has re-examined many areas assumed to work but found when investigated throughly to be lacking in evidence.
This was published: Dead Link Removed
in 2010 and perhaps Harmman should have read it.

In summary the only area of clinical use that could be justified on the evidence was in burns and even there "the evidence base is weak". Given the silver price increase must work through here as well it is unlikely, unless new evidence is presented, their use in the cash strapped NHS will increase in volume terms. The DTB is very influential as it is not funded by the industry.

 

[railwayman3]

"Hasn't silver been known and used as a bactericide for many years?"

It has indeed been widely used for many years but as with many "historical" practices/drugs not subjected to rigorous examination, what is referred to as "evidenced based practice" has re-examined many areas assumed to work but found when investigated throughly to be lacking in evidence.
This was published: Dead Link Removed
in 2010 and perhaps Harmman should have read it.

In summary the only area of clinical use that could be justified on the evidence was in burns and even there "the evidence base is weak". Given the silver price increase must work through here as well it is unlikely, unless new evidence is presented, their use in the cash strapped NHS will increase in volume terms. The DTB is very influential as it is not funded by the industry.

Interesting....I obviously have no specialist knowledge, so, when I made the comment, I was not sure if silver as a bactericide was an established use which could be readily exploited by Harman, or a totally new idea developed by them.

 

[Chris Livsey]

It goes back to Hippocrates, you may have subconsciously heard of it, not from him though
Interestingly the mechanism by which it works, and it does well in vitro, is "not yet fully understood" which means we have no real idea . It is harder to make it work in vivo, (not in usually but on). Even with their expertise in handling silver they are a minnow against the major players who already have products on the market. You would have to classify this as high risk, but perhaps being in the film business is that now anyway !!

 

[hpulley]

Yes you would.

Simon. ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited

I'm very sorry that I read your reply so quickly that I missed the job losses you mentioned. I'm sorry that people have had to lose their jobs, that's terrible. I hope you can afford to hire them back soon.

 

[Leon]

Blimey.

I'm basing these figures on what I'm assuming to be the pre 1.6.11 rise prices on AG photographic and today's prices on Harman Express:

AG (old price) - 50 x sheets 10x8 MG Art = £58.40

Harman (new price) - 50 x Sheets 10x8 MG Art = £75.84

That's approx 28% rise.

Frightening.
___________

 

[Tom Kershaw]

Blimey.

I'm basing these figures on what I'm assuming to be the pre 1.6.11 rise prices on AG photographic and today's prices on Harman Express:

AG (old price) - 50 x sheets 10x8 MG Art = £58.40

Harman (new price) - 50 x Sheets 10x8 MG Art = £75.84

That's approx 28% rise.

Frightening.
___________

Ag, Silverprint et al often sell at a discount against Harman Express prices.

Tom

 

[Leon]

a 28% discount?

 

[Curt]

...
The people who got screwed are the 20% or 58 who lost their jobs at Harmon, that's not nice. I'd rather see some products cut and nothing new in the works than to see people lose their jobs.

Curt

Rant pared down from an entire page to just these comments.

 

[Roger Cole]

...
The people who got screwed are the 20% or 58 who lost their jobs at Harmon, that's not nice. I'd rather see some products cut and nothing new in the works than to see people lose their jobs.

Curt

Rant pared down from an entire page to just these comments.

I'm very sympathetic too, but if they got screwed it wasn't by Harman. The market for film and analog materials is what it is. If there was a screwing it was by the same people who screwed the rest of us in the bubble that went before the most recent economic fall.

I doubt that cutting any materials would have saved jobs. On the face of it that just doesn't make any sense, unless some materials are losing money hand over fist, and I doubt that's the case.

 

[Sirius Glass]

+ 1

 

[Curt]

I'm very sympathetic too, but if they got screwed it wasn't by Harman. The market for film and analog materials is what it is. If there was a screwing it was by the same people who screwed the rest of us in the bubble that went before the most recent economic fall.

I doubt that cutting any materials would have saved jobs. On the face of it that just doesn't make any sense, unless some materials are losing money hand over fist, and I doubt that's the case.

You are right about that, the bubble burst, leaving us with a mess. Harman isn't to be faulted for making the difficult decisions and staying in business. In a perfect world products would be available everywhere at a fair price and those who make them would have steady employment and earn a decent wage.

When I need a wake up call these days I remember going into the camera store in '80 there in Santa Barbara and learning the cost of a box of sheet film had gone through the roof with no relief in sight thanks to the Hunt brothers. After Art Center and Brooks I left California early and began a new career in medicine where the employment wasn't iffy.

For me depending on photography for a livelihood ended at that time.