Ilford Pan F Plus pink stain after fixing.

[Andrew O'Neill]

Please, correction: It has ZERO effect.

Pan-f has this new pink color. I ignore it.
Tri-x has this unwashable pink hue while tmx washes out easily.

It has zero effect. Feel better now?

 

[otto.f]

No I have not tried an hour water soak. I am washing for 10, minutes. I have tried 20 minutes and 30 minutes. The pink, at the longer times, are the same as the 10 minute wash time. Acid or alkaline fixer also makes no difference in the pink "base stain"

Or, are you suggesting a one hour water pre-soak.

Thank you for your reply.

I always do pre-soak, mostly 3’. This water comes out dark pine green with Ilford film. Bergger advises even 5’ pre-soak for the Pancro400. If I combine this with 6’ instead of 5’ fixing with two fixing baths (the second becomes the first after several films and I renew the second), I get neutral films. I never saw washing having influence on pink

 

[Wisner]

First thank you for that information. Next, may I ask where you found that information? I just placed a bag of 36 exp. Pan F in the sunlight, I keep 6 frames in the house as a baseline. The pink is still there, not changed. I put a strip of 5 frames in newly mixed HCA, left in the HCA for 20 minutes, much longer than required. Washed the film for 30 min., dried and compared to the sunlit but not rewashed film, no change.

I should have posted this before - the status M white light reading on the D-Min base is .27. Not horrible but more than is should be, maybe. If the pink should be there then I am spinning my wheels.

The only thing I haven done is purchase a couple of new rolls of Pan F and test that. I have 100 foot loads that are about 6 months old, in date but not new. All film is in a freezer until the day before I need it.

.26 base stain certainly isn't going to affect the shadows, so I should just let things be.

But, could answer the question of where you found the Pan F has this new pink color, I would love to read it and get some sleep?

 

[NB23]

It has zero effect. Feel better now?

I sincerely do!

I was hoping this forum would go back to being serious about film, chemistry, darkroom tips... but in the end it’s more about presoaking and stand development.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

I sincerely do!

I was hoping this forum would go back to being serious about film, chemistry, darkroom tips... but in the end it’s more about presoaking and stand development.

For some, this is important. And it should be about was many topics as possible otherwise pretty boring

 

[craigclu]

Is the dye a more recent phenomenon? I've been using up some old freezer stash PanF+, testing some gear that I'm accumulating and not picked up on this. Mostly PyroCat, TF-4 fixer and also an old Watt-Aire washer. I don't use HCA or stop bath in my film routine (but do use both for printing).... It's been many years since I've purchased new PanF+ ( just found another frozen 100' roll!) so am curious whether this is something different in newer emulsion formulas?

 

[Sirius Glass]

I sincerely do!

I was hoping this forum would go back to being serious about film, chemistry, darkroom tips... but in the end it’s more about presoaking and stand development.

Demz fightin' words! Dey is like religions!

 

[Lachlan Young]

The weirdest film I ever worked with as far as pink goes was Acros sheet film. It looked clear in water bath, but after soaking for 15 minutes, the water had a pink tinge to it. I'd change the water, let it sit there for another 15 minutes, and still the water was a bit pink... weird.

Current generation C-41 films (Portra, Ektar etc) can also produce quite spectacularly pink wash water if left to soak after the main wash.

 

[Anon Ymous]

@Wisner Why is a 0,27 Dmin abnormally high? What should it be? We're talking about 135 film, right? A 0,3 value is about right for most.

 

[Wisner]

I have pulled out old Pan F film from my negative files, the readings are in the high teens, like the discontinued Efke films, Rollei RPX 25 is at .06; the old Pan F films also aren't pink. It really isn't about the .27, it is the pink stain, that stain, in the past, just was not there. My original post was about the pink. I have a recent reply that states the pink is new and normal. If pink is the case then I have no issues with .27 as the Dmin of the film. Shadow values, in my testing, start to have issues with base stain in the area of .40-.45 and above. The only time I have seen stains that high was in my testing testing of FX-11 on HP5, later fixed with benzotriozol and with my Caffenol testing.

I will be purchasing some new 36 exposure rolls of Pan F, instead of my 100 foot rolls and testing those. If the pink is there then I don't see anyway around the pink as my chemical processing is in proper order and fresh.

 

[pentaxuser]

I just placed a bag of 36 exp. Pan F in the sunlight, I keep 6 frames in the house as a baseline. The pink is still there, not changed. I put a strip of 5 frames in newly mixed HCA, left in the HCA for 20 minutes, much longer than required. Washed the film for 30 min., dried and compared to the sunlit but not rewashed film, no change.
But, could answer the question of where you found the Pan F has this new pink color, I would love to read it and get some sleep?

Well the answer about the pink being from sensitising dyes and disappearing in sunlight was from Roger Hicks and was way back in 2005 He claimed it came from an Ilford source. Nevertheless I am sorry to hear the sun appears to have made no difference although it may just be possible that the disappearance of the pink is as much time related as it is to strength of the sun, such that as long as there is clear, reasonably bright daylight then the speed of disappearance is several days irrespective of whether it is your location latitude in southern California or mine at more than 20 degrees further North

My explanation of why I never saw any pink in my Pan F+ relies on my rationalisation( and that's all it was) which I then gave that appeared to reconcile my initial feeling that my Pan F+ had no pink in the first place with others stating it is there

For what it is worth my PanF+ was exposed and developed in 2003 which is some 2+ years before the Roger Hicks posting. I bought it from a shop in Yorkshire and for all I know it was film that may have been from an earlier year so might have been from 2002 or 2001 So its possible that there was a change that produced the dye after the date of the manufacture of my film

It looks to me as if there is little to lose now by doing what I suggested in my first post which is an e-mail to Ilford.

There is nothing more annoying that to do all everyone suggests including me and still to have the pinkness

Best of luck. Whatever you decide to do let us know how it goes

pentaxuser

 

[Wisner]

Thank you for your work and time. Before I contact Ilford I will purchase two new 36 exp. rolls of Pan F from Freestyle Photographic; I am currently using my 6 month old 100 foot rolls that are always frozen. I will test these new 35mm rolls with manufacturers fixer and HCA instead of my own formulas, standard published formulas but still mine. After I do all I can to make sure the pink isn't me I will call Ilford. Once I have those answers from Ilford, I will post my final pink post so anyone that is interested in this thread will know the truth from the manufacturer.

Again, thank you.

 

[takilmaboxer]

I have 25 year old T grain negatives that had a pink stain and I didn't do anything about it out of ignorance. They print fine and they have lasted all this time with no problems. With time I figured out how to get rid of the pink...but...in the end, it is harmless and doesn't affect printability or archival qualities. It has zero effect.

 

[pentaxuser]

Wisner re: your #37 we can ask no more of you than that. Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[Wisner]

This seems to be bugging you as much as me, thank you. I will post back as soon as I know. The first thing Ilford will ask me is the emulsion number. New 35mm film will give Ilford no wiggle room.

Again, thank you for your concern.

 

[john_s]

To the extent that the pink is like a light magenta, is the pink cast going to slightly affect filtration for VC printing? Can someone estimate the density of the pink (as opposed to the ever-present base fog/tint)?

I used to give TMax negatives extra fixing to eliminate/reduce the pink cast. These days I haven't noticed it with Neopan400 and HP5+.

 

[Wisner]

John, I have made those tests with a condenser enlarger, with 35mm film, I always print 35mm with a condenser. While I can pick up a difference on a reflection densitometer, using variable contrast paper, that difference is in no way visible to the human eye. The difference in reflection densitometer readings between a pink base stain and a clear base stain was .03 density units, nothing to be concerned with.

As for the actual density of the pink base stain as compared to a clear or normal non-pink base stain on Pan F film. I have gone back in time to my older Pan F negatives, back to the 90's; we are now using Pan F+. On the 90's Pan F the clear film edge looks non-colored to my eye and has a density of .17 - .19. The pink stain negs. on the newer Pan F + film reads .27. Those readings are from status M readings, on white light. Status M is used to read negatives as compared to positive film. The density difference between the readings really isn't important as they will both print well. It is just the pink stain should not be there, maybe. If you read my post #37 you will see what my last check on the stain will be. Quite possibly, Ilford has changed Pan F+ as compared to Pan F and a light pink stain is now normal. I have spent way too much time on this but will complete it to the end by involving Ilford.

Once I test as per post 37 I will report back to this thread. This will take a couple of weeks.

 

[DREW WILEY]

The amount of pink stain is too small to have any significant effect when variable contrast printing. I do factor it when using black and white sheet film masks for color printing, but that is a topic wholly unrelated to Pan F itself.

 

[pentaxuser]

Looking at a site called Photo Memorabilia and clicking onto the section entitled Ilford Chronology gets you a detailed history, dates etc This shows that Pan F+ was introduced in 1992 so it would be likely that older Pan F stocks might have disappeared from retailers stocks by 1993 latest

Thus my non pink stained film was certainly Pan F+ by 2003 but as reported I cannot be sure that it was never pink or if it had a pink tinge that just disappeared with time and some exposure to light but here is something I do now recall. I have realised that when I purchased and exposed this in Spring 2003 I had no darkroom so this was developed at a night school class where it was dried in the dark. I would almost certainly have taken a neg file to the class and cut the negs and placed them in the file while still in artificial light. There was no natural light in any parts of the darkroom at college. I printed a few of the negs at night school only as I had no home darkroom then. I then took the neg file home and placed the file in a ring binder where it has sat covered with later neg files ever since. I never printed any of the negs at home. I have just had a look at the negs and can now state that while they may just for a moment have seen the light of day while being placed in the binder, assuming it was done in daylight hours, they have been in the dark 99.99999% etc of the time. There is not so much as a hint of any pinkness

The mystery deepens

pentaxuser

 

[Wisner]

Thank you for the clarification and your time.

 

[Wisner]

The last time I posted, I reported I was going to purchase new film and chemistry to confirm the pink base stain wasn't something I was doing or a hidden issue with the chemicals I make from scratch or something wrong with my 100 foot loads of film. Well, just received and tested all new film and chemistry, the pink base stain is exactly the same. This leads me to believe that Ilford is now making Pan F with a slight pink stain to the base. On to Ilford to see if the new Pan F comes with a slight pink stain in the base.

I am a board member at Freestyle Photographic so should be able to receive some very good contacts that aren't just level one phone help. Once I am in contact with them I will report back here.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

I have a bunch of 120 rolls and yes they are pink, but after wash, including HCA, no pink.

 

[NB23]

The pink of tmax films fades in uv light. It’s easy to see, just look at the leader. It’s not pink. Pull it out a bit and there is the pink. A few hours later and the pink is gone. Pull out another few millimeters and it’s pink.

And so on.

 

[Wisner]

Thank you but I did try that during my many posts. I placed a developed roll of film outside for one hour, but held back 5 frames for a baseline. The pink was exactly the same between the sunlit and non lit frames. It was a full sunny day at about 1:00 west coast time.

 

[Wisner]

Well, and this will be my last post on this subject. For anyone who still has an interest in Pan F+ 35mm and a slight pink base stain. I have finally received information from Harman Technologies, Ilford, on the pink stain issue. While I did not get a direct answer from Harman, I did get a well, yes, pink is basically normal. So, if anyone else experiences a slight pink base stain on 35mm, Pan F+, then all appears to be normal. My 120 film either shows just a very slight pink base stain or mostly, none at all.

Thanks to all that have replied to this post.