Ilford Multigrade & Selenium

[Marco B]

Thanks Steve for getting back on this topic and explaining in so much detail. This is very useful info to me and probably to others as well. I am still exploring all the nice possibilities and variations with different types of toning, and trying to get to grips with some of the underlying (chemical) processes.

I have already learned a lot by experimentation and reading all those great threads here on APUG. One of my latest explorations has been with split toning. Just the other day, I split toned an Ilford Warmtone FB print using a thiourea based sepia toner, followed by a copper based red toner. I was absolutely flabbergasted by the result! A fantastic orange / gold (and I mean a "gold" color, not the bleuish tint of gold toning) print came out...

A real wonder to learn all this stuff...

Marco
http://www.boeringa.demon.nl

 

[Tom Stanworth]

bottom line is that MGIV builds density and cools slightly just fine in selenium but wont colour shift or pick up density like some other cool papers. My Oriental Seagul VC cools a lot and build density very fast, whereas Forte papers change colour FAST, even the super cool polygrade. MGIV's limited colour shift is a boon when required and polygrades colour change can cause ruined images which can split where youn least want it in images where there are vaiable greys without clear delineation. I am not a huge fan of MGIV as for some reason I dont get on with it but its lack of rapid colour shift is actually appealing to me now that there are so few papers to choose from!

 

[Renato Tonelli]

Steve (et.al), thanks for taking the time and for sharing your notes. I'm going to give your suggestions a try.

 

[Dietmar Wolf]

Yes, many thanks, I will try, too.

 

[Paul.]

I have got a colour shift to the classic light purple colour with MGIV by cutting the highlights with a quick ferricyanide /hypo [fixer] bleach and heating the selenium toner on the dish warmer. WARNING HOT SELENIUM TONER IS HARMFUL TO DARKROOM WORKERS EXELANT VENTILATION IS ESSENTIAL, if possible do it outdoors.

Regards Paul.

 

[pentaxuser]

. WARNING HOT SELENIUM TONER IS HARMFUL TO DARKROOM WORKERS EXELANT VENTILATION IS ESSENTIAL, if possible do it outdoors.

Regards Paul.

I saw a similar comment from Les McLean as well. So what in temp terms constitutes hot selenium? Can I take it that selenium at room temp, say 20-24 degrees C is OK. My darkroom is a converted bedroom and there really is no other place to do the toning. I can of course leave the door wide open. Is this enough ventilation for room temp selenium or even hot selenium? However are the fumes at room temp or hotter particularly dangerous or simply unpleasant. Eventually any fumes vented onto the landing at the top of the stairs will disssipate via a through draught between the "sleeping" bedroom and bathroom both of which have windows open but I wouldn't want a lingering smell which wasn't dissipated within minutes. To give an idea of our( wife and I) susceptibility to smells, fixer and trad stop in a Nova Quad have never produced a smell which has got beyond the darkroom although the darkroom door is left open when not in use.

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[Paul.]

Pentaxuser,

I find selenium OK at room temp unless I stand over the tray for long periods ie. 45min or so. My darkroom is is 7x10 feet and my extractor fan is a 4inch bathroom fan running through a light seal.

The hot selenium I used was 30 degC + It was warm to the touch through my rubber gloves and I found the fumes gave me a sore throat and a head ache. I have repeated the process but the second time I opened the darkroom door and the shed door to the fresh air and made sure I stood outside for a bit every 5min so that I didnot suffer any effects.

I repeat in normal use selenium is no problem and only the concentrate smells so that you notice it, once diluted to working strength 1+10/20 I have no problems with the fumes at room temp.

Regards Paul.

 

[Ian Grant]

Sometimes people write about dangers that don't really exist. If you heat selenium toner to 90°C the fumes don't contain selenium. That's not to say you should breathe in the fumes, but as long as the ventilation is reasonable there's no problem at temperatures around 20°-40°C, the ammonia given off is most likely to be an irritant.

Selenium is poisonous by ingestion or absorption, but in practice the usual human problem is Selenium deficiency and many people take Selenium tablets for this. The rate of selenium absorption through skin contact is extremely slow and would require very long periods of exposure to reach the levels achieved by taking medicinal Selenium tablets.

All photographic chemicals should be treated with care and the recommended gloves & protective clothing, and ventilation are more than sufficient.

Ian

 

[pentaxuser]

Thanks both. What I found a little worrying was Les' comments about masks and ventilation. It may have been me but it sounded as if this was stuff that needed a lot of care as opposed to normal care i.e. something which when heated became really dangerous to the user and potentially very irritating to say the least for anyone in an ajoining room such as an adjacent bedroom even an hour or two later.

My take on your comments is that: Once diluted there isn't much, if any, smell although the fumes, even if relatively odourless, could give problems in a confined space. Within normal temp ranges, 20-40C which is getting pretty hot, photographically speaking, the increased risk is there due to the ammonia irritant but doesn't constitute a quantum leap in danger.

As I said I have a 11 x8 ft converted bedroom and can work with the door fully open onto the upstairs landing for ventilation. However the converted bedroom and our bedroom both open onto the same landing and a strong smell which had filled the bedroom when it's time for bed would not please the wife - or me to be fair.

I suppose the real answer is blackout blinds which can be raised and lowered. Then any toning can be done with the windows open. Currently the blackout is a permanent fixture.

pentaxuser

 

[tim rudman]

The issue with hot &/or strong selenium toner is mostly concerned with the smell of ammonia which is released. I used (written up in the first lith book)neat or 1+1 Se at 40 degrees for a unique effect with Sterling lith paper. It was noxious to the eyes and throat but OK if used in good ventilation and it quickly disappated but I certainly wouldn't recommend it in the bedroom before going to bed! Use the kitchen last thing at night or the front or back porch.
But the fumes are not "toxic selenium which will kill you", but ammonia - old fashioned smelling salts I believe.
Bottom line -take sensible precautions but don't get too paranoid.

I have come across photographic darkrooms and college depts that insist on goggles and respirators and others that won't allow Se on the premises - but only in the US. I think this is due to either being poorly informed or being fearful of litigation (or both). Fortunately, in the UK we haven't 'caught up' with the US in this regard yet
Tim

 

[pentaxuser]

Tim. I'll take it that your post was a reply to mine and thanks. I may have given the impression that the darkroom has to be converted back to a bedroom for sleeping purposes. It's a dedicated darkroom in fact but had been a bedroom until about 3 years ago. Our actual bedroom has a door onto the same landing as the darkroom but at 90 degrees to it and its door( bedroom as opposed to darkroom) can be shut to keep the smell out. The darkroom door would remain open and vent onto the landing but fresh air would enter via an open bathroom door with an open window. The bathroom wouldn't be needed either while a toning session is going on.

If I did any selenium toning either at or above room temp I'd make sure that such toning was finished about 2 hours before bed. Based on these precautions I could only "suck it and see". If it proved to be too much of an irritant then end of trial and back to the drawing board of installing a window blind or investigating the installation of a Filtaire 300 which while not the same as moving air ventilation is supposed to destroy fumes and odours by the use of extensive filters while sucking fumes in and pushing "defumigated clean air back out. This of course assumes that it works with ammonia. Neither is a cheap solution unfortunately but until I feel the irresistible need to try hot and strong selenium it sounds as if I can be spared any actual expense based on all three useful replies to my question.

pentaxuser

 

[Fraxinus]

This is all interesting stuff on selenium. As someone who used it extensively back in the 80s and 90s - even mixed my own from selenium metal in the days before KRST was easily available in the UK - I've survived (relatively) unscathed, and I've used it hot as well.

My question to this forum relates to the fact that I've recently started fibre printing (and toning) again after a break of around twelve years. I'm using my stock of Kodak Rapid Selenium from back then and it still works fine. The availability of suitable papers is another matter...Ilford Warmtone and Adox Nuance certainly tone well though.
Can anyone comment on whether the currently available KRST is the same formulation (concentration) as it was ten years ago? One commenter says that the Maco product is a slightly higher concentration; has anyone done any comparisons as to whether or not this 1% difference produces any noticeable difference?

 

[tim rudman]

This is all interesting stuff on selenium. As someone who used it extensively back in the 80s and 90s - even mixed my own from selenium metal in the days before KRST was easily available in the UK - I've survived (relatively) unscathed, and I've used it hot as well.

My question to this forum relates to the fact that I've recently started fibre printing (and toning) again after a break of around twelve years. I'm using my stock of Kodak Rapid Selenium from back then and it still works fine. The availability of suitable papers is another matter...Ilford Warmtone and Adox Nuance certainly tone well though.
Can anyone comment on whether the currently available KRST is the same formulation (concentration) as it was ten years ago? One commenter says that the Maco product is a slightly higher concentration; has anyone done any comparisons as to whether or not this 1% difference produces any noticeable difference?

Like you, I mixed my own back in the 70's when there was no commercial Se toner in the UK. It's much nicer to buy it off the shelf!

I'm not sure when KRST changed, but I'm sure that is must be rather more than 10 years ago. I know that the selenium study paper by the Image permanence Institute refers to the old formualation as being somewhat historical and that study was in the late 80's!

FWIW I haven't found big differences between Maco Se (3%) and KRST (2%), but I haven't done side by side comparisons.
Tim

 

[Marco B]

If it proved to be too much of an irritant then end of trial and back to the drawing board of installing a window blind or investigating the installation of a Filtaire 300 which while not the same as moving air ventilation is supposed to destroy fumes and odours by the use of extensive filters while sucking fumes in and pushing "defumigated clean air back out. pentaxuser

In my experience, only very "fresh" selenium toner gives of so much ammonia to be repugnant. After using it a few times (but still a very effective, so non-exhausted, toner), I think the amount of ammonia released drops dramatically and the issue becomes much less.

A simple bathroom ventilator above the trays is enough to reduce the stench to an acceptable, almost non existent, level at that stage.

Marco
http://www.boeringa.demon.nl

 

[degodan9]

Toning multigrade

I use Ilford FB Multigrade glossy paper and i selenium tone with Kodak rapid toner at a 1:10 dilution for about 5 min. One large obstacle I have encountered with selenium toning is the presence of hardener in the paper fix. The hardener is necessary for the silver to harden on the paper(go figure), but it also literally creates a barrier on the paper, making any toning that is necessary after fixing impossible. My advice is if you are using hardener in your paper fix, then take it out. Again, when i tone i use Kodak rapid selenium at a 1:10 dilution for 5 min. 5 min gives a generous color shift, which is what I like, but you can always cut your time down or dilute at 1:15 if you aren't trying for that look. After you tone and rinse your print, have water with just hardener in it to harden the silver, since as i said before it is necesary for the archival state of your print. Mixing toner with HC doesn't do anything to help, rinsing the print for extra long doesn't help, and if you don't use fix hardener then I don't see why you would have trouble selenium toning in the first place. Sorry this is so long, I hope i can be of assistance.

 

[Ian Grant]

Welcome, but please don't try to teach us to suck eggs in your first posts

In this day and age I don't know anyone who uses a hardening fixer, I haven't used one since the mid 1970's, and that was only for Adox films.

Modern films and papers are pre-hardened anyway, back in the 60's when I started it was a different matter.

Ian

I use Ilford FB Multigrade glossy paper and i selenium tone with Kodak rapid toner at a 1:10 dilution for about 5 min. One large obstacle I have encountered with selenium toning is the presence of hardener in the paper fix. The hardener is necessary for the silver to harden on the paper(go figure), but it also literally creates a barrier on the paper, making any toning that is necessary after fixing impossible. My advice is if you are using hardener in your paper fix, then take it out. Again, when i tone i use Kodak rapid selenium at a 1:10 dilution for 5 min. 5 min gives a generous color shift, which is what I like, but you can always cut your time down or dilute at 1:15 if you aren't trying for that look. After you tone and rinse your print, have water with just hardener in it to harden the silver, since as i said before it is necesary for the archival state of your print. Mixing toner with HC doesn't do anything to help, rinsing the print for extra long doesn't help, and if you don't use fix hardener then I don't see why you would have trouble selenium toning in the first place. Sorry this is so long, I hope i can be of assistance.

 

[tim rudman]

Welcome, but please don't try to teach us to suck eggs in your first posts

snip
Ian

I think this is a bit harsh.
The problem with using hardening fixers before toning is not as widely understood as you might think Ian, and I am sure there will be people reading this thread who are not aware of it (if workshop students are any guide)
Tim

 

[degodan9]

suck eggs?

i agree that this was a bit harsh. We may not all be professionals such as Ian is. I'm sorry Ian if you know much more than us, but if we all knew as much as you than we wouldn't need forums like this to answer questions that we have. So rather than parading around online letting people know how great you are, and how great you have been "since the 1970s", go be a professional and i'll send you a postcard next time I hear about your work on a national level. As for the rest of us who aren't as insightful as the great Ian, keep learning and keep film alive.

 

[Ian Grant]

Apologies degodan9 for jumping on you like that. I should have been a little more thoughtful. There were a number of incorrect points in your original post such as:

"The hardener is necessary for the silver to harden on the paper(go figure)" - hardener is not necessary at all for B&W papers, and hardener acts on the gelatin not the silver.

"but it also literally creates a barrier on the paper, making any toning that is necessary after fixing impossible." not strictly true, the hardener acts on the gelatin and once hardened a print can still be toned but it will take a little longer and the results may be patchy and uneven.

"have water with just hardener in it to harden the silver, since as i said before it is necesary for the archival state of your print." Not sure why you think hardener is necessary for archival permanence, it's certainly not recommended by Ilford or Agfa, and wash times are appreciably longer for hardened prints.

"Mixing toner with HC doesn't do anything to help, rinsing the print for extra long doesn't help," This part doesn't make sense but I guess you mean when you're trying to tone a hardened print.

Yes you are right about not using a hardener in the fixer if you're going to tone the prints, but for the wrong reasons.

Ian

 

[Dietmar Wolf]

Hello.

I follow this thread and just bought some Kodak Selenium Toner.

I have some questions about it.

1. They say that the stock solution has to be used within 6 months. What is your experience with stock solution, stored in glas bottles without oxygen?

2. Does toning directly after printing affect the dry down effect?

3. Thy say that 1 liter 1+3 is for roughly 25 sheets of fibre paper. So 1 liter 1+10 is exhausted with roughly 3 fibre papers (20x25cm)?

Thank you very much.

 

[degodan9]

fix hardener

Apologies degodan9 for jumping on you like that. I should have been a little more thoughtful.

I truly appreciate your response Ian. Its good to find people in this world with some sense of morality. On that note, I also apologize for my comments. Thank you.

The only reason I was offended was because I am currently a college student trying to puruse a career in this thing that we call photo and its quite disheartening to have a piece of advice immediately shut down.

As for my post on hardening fixer, I see your points. I still do harden my prints but only after I tone, so I figured any help I could give the original poster of this thread might help. As I said earlier, I am a college student still learning and any input that can be given from anyone such as you gave helps. We all know a lot about just a little bit.

Nick

 

[Ian Grant]

Nick, you should have a look at Jack Coote's book "Ilford Monochrome Darkroom Practice: A Manual of Black and White Processing and Printing" which may be in your college library. Alternatively have a look at the Ilford website, they have excellent PDF files on B&W processing, printing and toning.

Ian

 

[Paul.]

Hello.

I follow this thread and just bought some Kodak Selenium Toner.

I have some questions about it.

1. They say that the stock solution has to be used within 6 months. What is your experience with stock solution, stored in glas bottles without oxygen?

2. Does toning directly after printing affect the dry down effect?

3. Thy say that 1 liter 1+3 is for roughly 25 sheets of fibre paper. So 1 liter 1+10 is exhausted with roughly 3 fibre papers (20x25cm)?

Thank you very much.

Dietmar,
I dont know about Kodac Selenium toner as I dont use it but the Fotospeed selenium toner I am useing I baught and opened nearly 2 years ago, I use it untill exhausted, ie. when it takes unaceptably long to give the results I want. When the black bits of crud in the working solution get too numerous I filter it through kitchen towel when I pour it back into the storage bottle.
I have never counted the number of prints I put through a working strength solution but it is a lot more than 25, as I reuse the toner every session leaves less toner at the finish than the start so if it is a relatively fresh mix I just mix a bit more to top it off, I tone by inspection and do not note the time but I suspect it would normaly be about 5 min.

I cannot see that my Fotospeed toner will be very much differant to your Kodac, though I dare say others could prove me wrong.
My advise would be just keep useing it untill it either takes too long to give or does not give the results you want, at that point throw it out and mix a fresh batch. Keep the stock solution in it's original bottle untill it is all used.
As for disposal you will have to check your local by laws, here in the UK I dilute it well and flush it down the darkroom sink with the tap running.

Hope this helpful.
Regards Paul.

 

[Ian Grant]

Dietmar adding to what Paul's written, I use KRST and it has very good shelf life I have some that must be 4 or 5 years old in a partially full bottle and its still fine. My working solution keeps just as well, and I just top it up occasionally with fresh toner, I keep it in a plastic bottle.

Ian

 

[panastasia]

Dietmar adding to what Paul's written, I use KRST and it has very good shelf life I have some that must be 4 or 5 years old in a partially full bottle and its still fine. My working solution keeps just as well, and I just top it up occasionally with fresh toner, I keep it in a plastic bottle.

Ian

I had a large 1/2 full bottle of KRST for more than 10 years w/a large clear crystal (a precipitate) at the bottom of the bottle. The toner was still working when I used it last, recently.