Ilford Multigrade Developer capacity

[hiroh]

In the ILFORD official data sheet, it says that 1 liter of working strength developer can handle 40 8x10 prints at a 1+14 dilution, but in my experience, it's been much less than that. I notice the developer starts getting exhausted after around 15 prints.

What’s your experience?

 

[miha]

Are you using one litre of working strength (1+14) or less?

 

[hiroh]

Are you using one litre of working strength (1+14) or less?

1 liter (940+60ml).

And it’s a new developer. I bought it a month ago from a quite busy store, so it shouldn’t have been sitting around for too long.

 

[MARTIE]

Are you batch processing, so 40 prints straight after each other?

 

[albada]

What is your development time and temperature?
If prints are not reaching D-max, increasing time might get the litre closer to 40 prints.

Mark

 

[hiroh]

Are you batch processing, so 40 prints straight after each other?

No, I print normally. I make a new print every 15-30 minutes, depending on how long it takes me to inspect the previous prints and plan for the next one.

What is your development time and temperature?
If prints are not reaching D-max, increasing time might get the litre closer to 40 prints.

Mark

3 minutes at 23C, which is a room temperature for my chemistry. I don’t heat or cool it.

 

[MattKing]

1 liter (940+60ml).

That is actually 1 + 15.667 - which might have some effect.
Try decanting the developer into smaller glass or impermeable plastic - better than the stock bottles.

 

[mshchem]

I use Bromophen, excellent capacity, but I don't keep working solution except in a full bottle and then overnight, maybe a week.
I keep stock in absolutely full 250ml bottles, dilute 1+3 for use.

As long as you are not leaving developer sitting in open trays overnight, sounds like you have a great process

3 minutes is great development time, takes patience.

The one thing difficult to pin down is how old is the bottle from Ilford.

A couple years ago when Tetenal got into trouble I decided to buy a couple extra boxes of Bromophen, small NYC shop, one had been sitting so long it had been made in England, that box was at least 15 years old.

 

[cliveh]

I use Ilford multigrade developer diluted 1:9 in 10" X 8" trays at about 1 Litre dilution content. I would expect to get no more than about 20 10" X 8" prints in a session.

 

[hiroh]

That is actually 1 + 15.667 - which might have some effect.
Try decanting the developer into smaller glass or impermeable plastic - better than the stock bottles.

I rounded the numbers to simplify the measurements since my beakers are marked in tens, so pinpointing .33 or .66 is tricky. I didn’t think it would make much of a difference, but I can try to measure more precisely using a syringe.

I use Bromophen, excellent capacity, but I don't keep working solution except in a full bottle and then overnight, maybe a week.
I keep stock in absolutely full 250ml bottles, dilute 1+3 for use.

As long as you are not leaving developer sitting in open trays overnight, sounds like you have a great process

3 minutes is great development time, takes patience.

The one thing difficult to pin down is how old is the bottle from Ilford.

A couple years ago when Tetenal got into trouble I decided to buy a couple extra boxes of Bromophen, small NYC shop, one had been sitting so long it had been made in England, that box was at least 15 years old.

No, I’m talking about a single session. It wasn’t even left overnight in a capped bottle. It just sat in the tray for 6-7 hours during my printing session, and then it started to dull. I tried leaving one print in for 7 minutes instead of 3, but the blacks weren’t nearly as rich as they should be. Then I mixed a fresh solution, and it went back to normal.

I don’t think the bottle is old. The shop where I bought it is pretty popular with a likely high turnover. But of course, we can't be sure.

I use Ilford multigrade developer diluted 1:9 in 10" X 8" trays at about 1 Litre dilution content. I would expect to get no more than about 20 10" X 8" prints in a session.

With a 1+9 dilution, I also get more prints before the developer shows signs of exhaustion. But certainly not 50 8x10 prints as stated in the Ilford data sheet.

 

[MattKing]

So you are having problems with developer left in a tray?
If so, that isn't surprising.
The developer is interacting with the air.
Either bottle it between uses, or sometimes you can use cling film on top of the solution to help a bit.
With some trays, you can use another tray stacked on top as an informal top.
There are even people who use Tupperware type containers for the purpose, because of their sealable lids.

 

[hiroh]

So you are having problems with developer left in a tray?
If so, that isn't surprising.
The developer is interacting with the air.
Either bottle it between uses, or sometimes you can use cling film on top of the solution to help a bit.
With some trays, you can use another tray stacked on top as an informal top.
There are even people who use Tupperware type containers for the purpose, because of their sealable lids.

Is it a problem if the developer sits in the tray for a 6-7 hour session? I thought that was normal. I always put it back in the bottle when I finish, but I assumed it’s okay for it to sit in the tray during the session.

 

[MattKing]

Is it a problem if the developer sits in the tray for a 6-7 hour session? I thought that was normal. I always put it back in the bottle when I finish, but I assumed it’s okay for it to sit in the tray during the session.

It is a problem - too much air gets into it.
That is a very long continuous time for such a small number of prints.
If you are going to work for that length of time, either incorporate some sort of cover, or investigate an approach that incorporates replenishment.

 

[MARTIE]

It sounds very much like developer exhaustion partly due to use and partly due to developer oxidation.

I believe the capacity numbers supplied by Ilford is for batch processing.

 

[hiroh]

It is a problem - too much air gets into it.
That is a very long continuous time for such a small number of prints.
If you are going to work for that length of time, either incorporate some sort of cover, or investigate an approach that incorporates replenishment.

It sounds very much like developer exhaustion partly due to use and partly due to developer oxidation.

I believe the capacity numbers supplied by Ilford is for batch processing.

Got it. I'll try covering the tray instead. It would be too much hassle to pour the developer in and out of the bottle between each print.

According to the Ilford MG developer data sheet: "Working strength MULTIGRADE developer, PQ UNIVERSAL and BROMOPHEN left in an open dish should not be kept for more than one working day. If stored in a tightly capped bottle they may last up to 24 hours."

I read all their chemistry and paper documentation when I started experimenting in the darkroom, and based on that, I thought it was completely safe to keep the developer in an open tray while working.

 

[pentaxuser]

It sounds very much like developer exhaustion partly due to use and partly due to developer oxidation.

I believe the capacity numbers supplied by Ilford is for batch processing.

It would seem a pity that if MG developer isn't capable of lasting 6-7 hours of continuous processing without deterioration that they don't say what the maximum time.

I have never tried 6-7 hours continuous processing and use a Nova processor anyway but I don't think I'd naturally assume that less than 6 hours was the maximum I could use an open tray for one continuous session

pentaxuser

 

[MARTIE]

It would seem a pity that if MG developer isn't capable of lasting 6-7 hours of continuous processing without deterioration that they don't say what the maximum time.

I have never tried 6-7 hours continuous processing and use a Nova processor anyway but I don't think I'd naturally assume that less than 6 hours was the maximum I could use an open tray for one continuous session

pentaxuser

One working day being 8hrs?

 

[MARTIE]

Perhaps more importantly, opened developer concentrate also oxidises very quickly.

It's generally better practice to decanter any remaining concentrate into smaller bottles.

Personally, I shifted from MG dev to Bromophen mainly due to my experience with keeping properties.

 

[john_s]

...................

Personally, I shifted from MG dev to Bromophen mainly due to my experience with keeping properties.

I wonder why there's a difference. I would think that they are both basically made of pretty much the same ingredients.

 

[MattKing]

What size tray are you using?
And how much working strength developer?
And how many 8x10 or equivalent prints are you doing in that 6-7 hours?

 

[MARTIE]

I don't believe that a print developer has a linear exhaustion/capacity rate.

It doesn't surprise me that 1 litre MG developer mixed at 1+14 in open trays refuses to process at the end of a 6-7hr printing session as it did at the beginning.

And I should think that it would be the same for the printer!

 

[mshchem]

It sounds very much like developer exhaustion partly due to use and partly due to developer oxidation.

I believe the capacity numbers supplied by Ilford is for batch processing.

Yep, I think this is probably what's happening.

Maybe why Kodak choose 1 shot (process CP-5) when developing the Kodak Rapid Color Processor in the 60's.

Modern color chemistry must be miraculous to survive at high temperatures, continuous use. And of course there's non-stop replenishment.

 

[snusmumriken]

There's nothing in the Ilford instructions to suggest that capacity would be any different in batch processing.

I use Multigrade Developer at 1+9, 1 litre of working solution at a time. So my developing tray contains 50% more active chemical than yours does. I can make five 12x16 FB prints (including rejects) in a session before my print washer is full, plus another sheet cut up for test strips, so in total that's equivalent in area to 14-15 8x10 prints. Even if I intend to print the next day, I discard the developer at the end of such a session, because experience has taught me that I may not actually print next day; and that whenever the next session is, I will have to mix more developer partway through. So I reckon your experience of 15 8x10 FB prints is realistic. The cost of fresh developer is small compared with the cost of wasted paper!

 

[miha]

I think the reason is evident. The OP is diluting the developer beyond what Mfg suggests and leaving it in an open tray for a long time. I would suggest 1+9 as an obvious quick fix.

 

[snusmumriken]

I think the reason is evident. The OP is diluting the developer beyond what Mfg suggests and leaving it in an open tray for a long time. I would suggest 1+9 as an obvious quick fix.

Actually, the Ilford data sheet does say:
" It [Ilford Multigrade developer] is usually used at a dilution of 1+9 but for greater development control and economy it can be used at 1+14."