Ilford MGIV

[stradibarrius]

Would you consider Ilford MGIV a warm tone paper? I find it is a good paper for a beginner like me but am just curious as to where in the cool-warm range it would fall??

 

[jp498]

Ilford's warm tone papers say "warm tone".

 

[pentaxuser]

It is a neutral toned paper in developers such as Ilford MG dev but is on the warm side of neutral in warmer toned developers such as Bromophen,Ilford WT, Agfa Neutol WA, D163 and may be on the cold side of neutral in such as Dektol.

You might need the same print in a cold toned dev to see the difference between the cold side of neutral, and neutral. Likewise with the warmtone devs. Paper developers can effect the tone slightly but it is the paper that determines tone to the greatest extent.

pentaxuser

 

[stradibarrius]

Thanks pentaxuser for the help.

 

[L Gebhardt]

In most developers it is very neutral. But it can be made warmer or cooler with different developers. It also has a white base, unlike most warm toned papers which are more cream colored.

 

[Jerevan]

I'd say the glossy MGIV is neutral, verging on the colder side. I think the paper base now is more white than it used to be. And I agree that it is a good paper, top notch quality.

 

[Mick Fagan]

I agree with Jerevan, it is neutral to cold.

I have used a warm tone developer and it made an almost noticeable difference, but only if you looked carefully and could compare a straight print alongside.

I have used the same warm tone developer with Ilford MG RC warmtone paper, it really is a warmtone.

I suggest portraits would work well on Ilford MG RC warmtone paper for most print workers, but for the best effect, as in it is certainly noticeable, then a warmtone developer just kicks it along.

Mick.

 

[Ian Grant]

Until I looked at some images I'd copied last year I really hadn't realised just how "blue" cold Multigrade IV Fibre based can be, the first image was processed in PQ Universal, the second is Agfa Record Rapid in ID-78. Both images shot within a few minutes For reference there's a grey scale.

So Multigrade IV can be very cold toned.

Ian

 

[Tom Kershaw]

Ian,

Did you achieve those cold tones simply via development in PQ Universal? My results with Multigrade IV have always been completely neutral.

Tom

 

[kauffman v36]

my results with iflord mgiv fb have been great until i decided to go cheap and try arista edu paper. at first i didnt see a difference in tone, only a difference in the fact that the arista emulsion tends to fall off on the edges a lot easier than ilford. then i went back to ilford and when i compare the same print on both papers i realize how cold the ilford paper is. for that reason i am going to start deciding from my 8x10 work prints which 11x14 and bigger i want to make on neutral or warm tone paper. i am currently doing a project on the everglades in florida and think ilfords warmtone paper would look better than its neutral paper for the subjects. ilford neutral is also contrasty. all my tests were done in the same developer, i dont recall which one, its the school lab, but i know it hasnt changed. quality wise ilford mgiv is still top notch, nothing like it except maybe bergger paper.

 

[Ian Grant]

Tom, the images are quite old but they are definitely a straight untoned prints, all my Multigrade FB prints are equally as cold in tone. It's only when I coid them (electronic flash) that I realised how steely cold they are, there's optical brighteners in the paper (or were) so it depends what lighting you view the images.

I can't be 100% certain that I used PQ Uninversal, but the only print developers I routinely used where PQ Uninversal, then Agfa Neutol WA, ID-78 and ID-3 or Adaptol.

Ian

 

[jovo]

Ian,

Did you achieve those cold tones simply via development in PQ Universal? My results with Multigrade IV have always been completely neutral.

Tom

I switched to PQ Universal precisely because it was just a bit warmer than the Ilford Paper Developer I had been using. Over time, though, I've begun to feel that PQ Universal wasn't allowing the real crispness this paper has to show up fully. Since I now tone most work in thiocarbamide and selenium I'm going back to Ilford Paper Developer because it's cheaper (just a bit), and the toning is going to obviate the slight difference between the two anyway. MGIVFB is excellent material.

 

[brian steinberger]

I find Ilford MGIV at it's best after a bath in selenium toner, regardless of developer. I use LPD 1:4 and as with many other developers, leaves the print with a slight greenish cast. I then tone in Kodak selenium toner 1:9 for 3-5 minutes and the green dissapears and leaves a wonderful cool tone image with amazing depth.

 

[Anon Ymous]

I find Ilford MGIV at it's best after a bath in selenium toner, regardless of developer. I use LPD 1:4 and as with many other developers, leaves the print with a slight greenish cast. I then tone in Kodak selenium toner 1:9 for 3-5 minutes and the green dissapears and leaves a wonderful cool tone image with amazing depth.

Using fresh Ilford Multigrade developer, the image tone is neutral. If you tone in strongish KRST (1+9 or so) it turns very slightly purple after about 5 minutes.

 

[stradibarrius]

I find Ilford MGIV at it's best after a bath in selenium toner, regardless of developer. I use LPD 1:4 and as with many other developers, leaves the print with a slight greenish cast. I then tone in Kodak selenium toner 1:9 for 3-5 minutes and the green dissapears and leaves a wonderful cool tone image with amazing depth.

Brian, many of your prints have that "cooler" look even though you are using the MGIV warmtone??? I know some of those have a selenium toner but some do not. Is that just the LPD that is giving it the cooler look?

 

[mikebarger]

Wow, looking at the top print I many have to try PQ. I really like cold toned MUCH better than brown.

Thanks for the comparison.

Mike

 

[brian steinberger]

Brian, many of your prints have that "cooler" look even though you are using the MGIV warmtone??? I know some of those have a selenium toner but some do not. Is that just the LPD that is giving it the cooler look?

I print on both MGIV and Ilford warmtone FB papers. The LPD developer does NOT give a cooltone look to either paper in my eyes. I've been loving the warmtone more and more because it tones in Selenium, sepia, and Viradon so beautifully.

I've tried Clayton ultra-cold developer with the warmtone paper, and that cools it off a little bit. If you want cooltone images though, go with the MGIV and selenium toner. Developer choice isn't too critical if you're selenium toning.

 

[Jim Chinn]

When I have printed with MGIV I have I get the best neutral to cold prints developing in dektol with benzotriazole added and toning in selenium 1-9 for 2 minutes.

 

[Ian Grant]

When I have printed with MGIV I have I get the best neutral to cold prints developing in dektol with benzotriazole added and toning in selenium 1-9 for 2 minutes.

The type of Dektol is important, there's the classic MQ Dekto, the powdered version which is D72 and also a "Liquid Dektol" (formerly Polymax) which is a PQ developer (Dimezone/Hyroquinone). PQ developers are usually warmer but give a much colder image tone if Benzotriazole is added.

Ian

 

[nworth]

My results with MGIV-FB have always been pretty neutral regardless of the developer (Ansco 130, Defender 54-D, D-72, Ilford cold tone). D-72 is a quite cold tone developer and may be somewhat cooler than the others, but all were neutral to cold. It's interesting to see the variation others have gotten.

 

[Ektagraphic]

Thanks Ian for posting those examples. I have been looking to see something like that. I guess it is time I try out a warmer paper!

 

[Richard Jepsen]

I'll echo that MGIV-FB is neutral in PQ. Galerie is a slightly warmer emulsion.

 

[Ian Grant]

It's worth adding that I had thought my Multigrade Fibre based prints were neutral until I copied them and they were placed alongside images printed on galerie, Kentona, Record Rapid, MCC & Polywarmtone,. It was only then I realised how steely blue they were in comparison.

The images were copied at the same time, the warm tone image hasn't been corrected as the colours are exactly as in the print, but with the Multigrade I've had to desaturate as the copy was decidedly bluer than the original, this may be because MG IV FB has has (or had) optical brighteners. (I have an older Ilford MGIV datasheet - PDF with that info).

D72/Dektol is not that cold toned due to it's bromide level and there are colder toned formula, temperature must be kept low for cold tones, no more than 20°C, higher temperatures help improve warmth.

Strangely things like the acidity of a stop bath, the type of fixer and the temperature a print is dried at can all effect image colour. Image colour is due tohow fine the grain is in the print, the finer the grain the warmer, over fixing in Rapid fix dissolves silver lowering warmth, over development means colder tones etc.

Ian

 

[Tom Kershaw]

Ian,

Your comment on D-72 is interesting as it gives colder results than some of my KB free Benzotriazole containing paper developer experiments. I understand the presence of the various additives can produce odd results in terms of colour, contrast, and tonality, if not carefully managed.

Tom

 

[Ian Grant]

Tom, adding extra carbonate can help reduce warmth, too much though gives base fog, but more Benzotriazole + Carbonate may well help.

Usually Blue tone developers (MQ) have less than 1 gm KBr.

Ian