Ilford MGIV RC Portfolio Postcard Paper - Quality issues

avizzini · Nov 15, 2020

I recently bought a box of Ilford’s MGIV RC postcard paper from B&H Photo. I’ve not used this paper before but I’ve used other Ilford MGIV RC paper in the past without any problems.

With this specific paper, I’m running into a lot of issues with small black/dark gray spots everywhere. These are tiny spots of various size, some sharp, some softer, always in different locations with each print (I did not change the negative/lens/filter between each print). They are more visible in darker areas of the print.

It’s not the negative, lens, filters, or chemicals, it must be the paper because, during the same print session, using the same exposure, same negative, and same chemicals, I’ll have black spots on the postcard paper but, If I use an 8x10 sheet (print area is still postcard size) of MGIV RC paper the print will be clean, no spots.

Samples of the postcard paper (not every spot is highlighted):

Clean samples of the standard 8x10 paper:

I’ve gone through about 20 sheets of the postcard paper and every one has this issue to varying degrees.

Another thing, I’m not familiar with this paper, should it behave similar to the standard MGIV RC Pearl paper? This postcard paper is MGIV RC Portfolio Pearl. I’ve noticed, when comparing it to the standard 8x10 RC paper (during the same session with the same chemicals) that with the postcard paper, it takes longer for the image to appear and it’s fairly lower contrast. The same negative might need a 4.5-5 filter grade on the postcard paper while on the 8x10 it might need 3 or so.

This paper was backordered from B&H Photo for about a month, I don’t know if I just got sent an old box? Or, if it’s a bad batch? I’ve not had this problem with their other papers… I plan on contacting Ilford but, I was just wondering if anyone else had experience with this paper in the past (good or bad).

MattKing · Nov 15, 2020

I have used that paper in the past without issue. The differences with standard MGIV RC should be essentially just the weight of the paper stock.
I would definitely contact Ilford.

avizzini · Nov 15, 2020

MattKing said:
I have used that paper in the past without issue. The differences with standard MGIV RC should be essentially just the weight of the paper stock.
I would definitely contact Ilford.

That's what I assumed... although I much prefer the newer MGV RC paper to the MGIV RC, I could still get good prints with MGIV. That's not the case with my postcard paper, even ignoring the spot issue, I struggled to get nice prints/contrast on certain negatives going as far as filter 5, while the same exposure settings/chemicals with the standard MGIV RC paper would have too much contrast at filter 5.

mooseontheloose · Nov 15, 2020

I had similar issues last year when trying to print an image on Ilford’s postcard paper, but I assumed it was a problem with the negative, as I shot on old expired infrared film. I ended up printing a different image but can’t remember this issue being there. However, your image looks exactly the same as the problem I had, with dark spots in the sky - I’ll see if I can scan the image when I get home for comparison.

Ian Grant · Nov 15, 2020

In the second image the photo on the left has a line it's lighter one side than the other. I suspect it's an over fixing issue where another print has been sat on top in the fixer covering the darker right side and the left has some image bleaching. Rapid fixers can do this.

Ian

avizzini · Nov 15, 2020

Ian Grant said:
In the second image the photo on the left has a line it's lighter one side than the other. I suspect it's an over fixing issue where another print has been sat on top in the fixer covering the darker right side and the left has some image bleaching. Rapid fixers can do this.

Ian

sorry, I should have explained that, that was a test print of two exposure times, it just happened to be a good example of my spotting problem.

avizzini · Nov 15, 2020

mooseontheloose said:
I had similar issues last year when trying to print an image on Ilford’s postcard paper, but I assumed it was a problem with the negative, as I shot on old expired infrared film. I ended up printing a different image but can’t remember this issue being there. However, your image looks exactly the same as the problem I had, with dark spots in the sky - I’ll see if I can scan the image when I get home for comparison.

yeah unless the spots are big, I’d not notice them except for in darker skies, water or other less busy areas. I’ve used these negatives multiple times without issue, and as explained, during this same session, the non post card paper came out clean... I’ll let you know what Ilford says. Do you recall if the spots showed up in different areas for each print with the same negative?

pentaxuser · Nov 15, 2020

Isn't the key question: What can cause a tiny black spot on a print? We can presumably rule out a hole in the negative because were it to be that then the black spot would be on both kinds of paper? We can rule out a solid speck landing on the print paper as well at exposure as this would result in a white spot on the print?

The same would go for solid specks in the print developer which if this settled on the paper would result in white spots?

I have run out of explanations to reconcile the apparent fault with anything other than some defect in the Postcard paper that creates black spots post development

Finally onto the unknown for me, and here I am assuming we are looking at scans of prints, is there anything in a scanner either physically or in its software that might cause this? Of course even this last question supposes that the poster hasn't checked the actual print and sees the black specs

If he has done this and the black specs are definitely on the Postcard paper then is there any other explanation than defective paper?

On last check possibly. Develop and fix the post card paper without exposure then check the surface is there any black specs in the paper? If so then is there any other explanation than defective paper.

Given the speed of the coating machines then it is likely that many hundreds of feet of paper are affected so many customers likely to be affected

It sounds as if all the sheets of Postcard paper so far that the OP has used has the problem and in different parts of the sheets. Is it possible that foreign black bodies somehow fell on the paper as it was being coated and got "rolled in"

Unless anyone can come up with an explanation that exonerates the manufacturer then it would seem that a note to Ilford is in order.

OP in your note, Ilford is likely to require the info on the box to help it identify when that paper was run

pentaxuser

avizzini · Nov 15, 2020

pentaxuser said:
Isn't the key question: What can cause a tiny black spot on a print? We can presumably rule out a hole in the negative because were it to be that then the black spot would be on both kinds of paper? We can rule out a solid speck landing on the print paper as well at exposure as this would result in a white spot on the print?

The same would go for solid specks in the print developer which if this settled on the paper would result in white spots?

I have run out of explanations to reconcile the apparent fault with anything other than some defect in the Postcard paper that creates black spots post development

Finally onto the unknown for me, and here I am assuming we are looking at scans of prints, is there anything in a scanner either physically or in its software that might cause this? Of course even this last question supposes that the poster hasn't checked the actual print and sees the black specs

If he has done this and the black specs are definitely on the Postcard paper then is there any other explanation than defective paper?

On last check possibly. Develop and fix the post card paper without exposure then check the surface is there any black specs in the paper? If so then is there any other explanation than defective paper.

Given the speed of the coating machines then it is likely that many hundreds of feet of paper are affected so many customers likely to be affected

It sounds as if all the sheets of Postcard paper so far that the OP has used has the problem and in different parts of the sheets. Is it possible that foreign black bodies somehow fell on the paper as it was being coated and got "rolled in"

Unless anyone can come up with an explanation that exonerates the manufacturer then it would seem that a note to Ilford is in order.

OP in your note, Ilford is likely to require the info on the box to help it identify when that paper was run

pentaxuser

These are scans of the print, the issue is very much apparent (perhaps more so) on the paper itself, these spots aren't being added by the scanner.

I hadn't thought to develop a sheet without exposure, next time I'm in the darkroom I'll try, part of me thinks the problem won't appear or very much less so, as currently the spots are really only noticeable in the darker areas of the print and faintly in lighter areas. Maybe they would, I'd need to try. In any case, the spots don't appear, so far, in the white unexposed borders around the photos.

Every sheet, 20 or so of the 100, had this issue. The paper itself, out of the box, prior to using it, looked clean without any noticeable imperfections.

Ilford has an online form for feedback/problems where they specically ask for the batch number, paper type, images, seller, etc... so that was all given to them.

MattKing · Nov 15, 2020

You can also contact them by Starting a Conversation with them here - Harman Tech Service is the username (and apparently if you include @Harman Tech Service in a thread, they are notified)

avizzini · Nov 19, 2020

I got a response from Ilford...

From your comments and from looking at the defects, I think all issues are unfortunately linked to the age of the paper. Ie although you’ve only recently bought the paper from B&H Photo, that 09C504C88 batch correlates to a batch manufactured in Sept 2013.
We typically guide that paper performs optimally for 3 years upon purchase (that’s based on us assuming the dealer is selling items they’ve not long receive off the distributor/us).
After that time point, the paper will slowly deteriorate – it loses speed, loses contrast, loses blacks and gains base fog. It can also result in blacks spots, mottle, or yellowing/colouration changes arising.

So, that you’re seeing spots on the paper, likely links to this – it will be an interaction effect that arises because the paper is now 7 years old.
Likewise as your paper is showing a slow induction (print appearing in dev), and lacking in contrast, and is slower that standard MGRC IV – will also be linked to the age. This links to your q too – that yes, MGRV IV Portfolio and standard MGRC IV typically have very similar performances. Yours doesn’t – because its showing deterioration from its age.

I will need to let you know too though - MGRC IV is no longer manufactured by us. It was superseded approx a year ago by MGRC Deluxe.
MGRC Deluxe is a slightly faster paper than MGRC IV. MGRC Deluxe has a faster induction time, and also has better blacks, and better grade spacing (more even contrast spacing) than MGRC IV.

So my advice would be that you need to get the item refunded – or swap it for an alternate item with B&H. Unfortunately we no longer manufacture Portfolio postcard items.

So, it looks like B&H unfortunately sent me 7 year old paper and that the postcard paper is no longer manufactured. I'll request a refund from B&H and maybe find an alternative way to do postcard style prints.

mooseontheloose · Nov 19, 2020

avizzini said:
I got a response from Ilford...

So, it looks like B&H unfortunately sent me 7 year old paper and that the postcard paper is no longer manufactured. I'll request a refund from B&H and maybe find an alternative way to do postcard style prints.

Thanks for the information. I'll have to look at my boxes to see if the batch code matches yours - I order my postcard paper from Freestyle but it may have been the same issue.

cjbecker · Nov 19, 2020

Well, this is good info to have as I just got my box of postcard paper from BH and it's the same batch number as yours. Not sure if I should try it, or just get a refund for it.

avizzini · Nov 19, 2020

cjbecker said:
Well, this is good info to have as I just got my box of postcard paper from BH and it's the same batch number as yours. Not sure if I should try it, or just get a refund for it.

Yeah it was backordered for a month, not sure where or how they came into this additional old stock. In any case, their customer service was pretty good about a refund.

Brendan Quirk · Nov 19, 2020

Maybe problems with the silver halide grains in the emulsion? Bad dispersion? Clumping of grains after dispersion? Either way, an emulsion fault resulting in s few over-size silver halide specks?

avizzini · Nov 19, 2020

mooseontheloose said:
Thanks for the information. I'll have to look at my boxes to see if the batch code matches yours - I order my postcard paper from Freestyle but it may have been the same issue.

I'll be curious to know if it's the same batch and if it has the same issues. If not, maybe I might order from them. I'm not sure when they stopped making it, and thus what the 'freshest' stock could be. Probably when they transitioned to their new RC paper?

pentaxuser · Nov 20, 2020

Unfortunately we no longer manufacture Portfolio postcard items.

While it was obvious to me and I am sure all the rest of you that MGIV was no longer manufactured, does the above quote from Ilford mean that it is currently no longer manufacturing Portfolio post card which is a temporary consequence of ceasing MGIV production or does it mean that it has decided not to ever manufacture Portfolio postcard paper again and does this apply to all Portfolio items? Portfolio was made in a whole range of sizes and if Portfolio paper has now ceased forever and will never be transferred to the new DELUXE emulsion then this is a pity.

I had simply thought that all RC papers that once were MGIV would eventually become DELUXE, the new name for what we refer to as MGV

pentaxuser

MattKing · Nov 20, 2020

Portfolio paper came in other sizes besides postcard size. It was heavier paper, coated with the MGIV emulsion.
It is still listed on Ilford's website, in postcard size (4" x 6"), but I can't find any listing for the back printed with postcard information version.

NB23 · Nov 20, 2020

Looks like dust on a neg to me. But if you say it’s not on the negs, then it looks like a defect. Also looks like pinhole exposures.

Please try to thoroughly develop an unexposed sheet (3 minutes). Maybe those spots will appear.

pentaxuser · Nov 20, 2020

MattKing said:
Portfolio paper came in other sizes besides postcard size. It was heavier paper, coated with the MGIV emulsion.
It is still listed on Ilford's website, in postcard size (4" x 6"), but I can't find any listing for the back printed with postcard information version.

Interesting Matt. It may be that postcard size Portfolio paper with the back printing is the only thing to be eliminated form the llford RC paper line-up but the way the reply was formed does leave this slightly open to interpretation. If Portfolio DELUXE is produced in postcard size then that's at least something but still a pity if the back printing has gone

How does one start a question on this with Ilford here on Photrio?

Thanks

pentaxuser

MattKing · Nov 20, 2020

pentaxuser said:
How does one start a question on this with Ilford here on Photrio?

Start a Conversation (send a "PM") to Harman Tech Service.
Rumour has it that they are automatically notified if you include @Harman Tech Service in a pos.
In case that is true, and they see this, then the question is:
"Are any Portfolio RC papers still available, and if so, in what sizes?"
Followed up by:
""Will their be Portfolio RC paper products available in the future, with the new Ilford Classic emulsions, and if so, in what sizes?"

pentaxuser · Nov 20, 2020

MattKing said:
Start a Conversation (send a "PM") to Harman Tech Service.
Rumour has it that they are automatically notified if you include @Harman Tech Service in a pos.
In case that is true, and they see this, then the question is:
"Are any Portfolio RC papers still available, and if so, in what sizes?"
Followed up by:
""Will their be Portfolio RC paper products available in the future, with the new Ilford Classic emulsions, and if so, in what sizes?"

Thanks Matt I have made contact with Ilford via its own IlfordPhoto website. In it I mentioned what prompted my e-mail and asked more or less exactly what your two questions ask

I found the Partners Forum here but couldn't see a route by which a "start a conversation" was possible

pentaxuser

MattKing · Nov 20, 2020

pentaxuser said:
I found the Partners Forum here but couldn't see a route by which a "start a conversation" was possible

No particular forum necessary. Just click on Inbox at the top of the page, and Start a New Conversation is one of the options that presents itself. You will have to type in their screen name.
If you find one of Harman Tech Service's posts you can click on their screen name and the option to start a Conversation with them will present itself.

pentaxuser · Nov 21, 2020

Matt I have never bothered with the Inbox in 15 years so while my eyes must have seen it every time I come here my brain never registered. Thanks

pentaxuser

MattKing · Nov 21, 2020

pentaxuser said:
Matt I have never bothered with the Inbox in 15 years so while my eyes must have seen it every time I come here my brain never registered. Thanks

pentaxuser

Have you checked whether you have mail?

Ilford MGIV RC Portfolio Postcard Paper - Quality issues

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