Ilford MGIV FB with a little warmth

[Anon Ymous]

The "sharp" smell of acidic rapid fixers like Ilford Rapid isn't because of the ammonium content in them, but because of the acetic acid and bisulfites/metabisulfites in them. Alkaline rapid fixers on the other hand can smell like ammonia AFAIK. The difference is in the pH of the solution. Alkaline pH makes them smell so. Oh and it's a good idea to use gloves when handling selenium toner. Additionally, make sure you clean any spills very well. It's not just that it's quite nasty stuff, it also *stains* evrything.

 

[Adrian Twiss]

Get your pocketbook ready for the hit before you do that. It is an outrageously expensive paper. I'd say to invest in a scale, a bunch of powdered chemicals, and a book of recipes, though you ought to at least try the paper once. It is gorgeous, and only slightly warm, which I like.

One such recipe book I would recommend is Steven Anchell's Darkroom Cookbook. In there you will find a formula for a developer called Defender 55 Portrait Developer. This developer gives very pleasing warm tones. Another (IIRC) is Jim Carbone's copper tone developer which uses Pyrocatechin. I have never tried it so it may be do drastic a colour shift.

 

[StigHagen]

Ralph, did you mean you do split toning with the nude pictures or only polysulfide? Is polysulfide archival if not selenium toning is involved?

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Ralph, did you mean you do split toning with the nude pictures or only polysulfide? Is polysulfide archival if not selenium toning is involved?

I usually tone in selenium first to 'improve' the shadows, followed by direct sulfide toning to warm midtones and highlights. I like the slight split-tone effect. Sometimes, depending on subject, I use direct sulfide toning alone.

Archival protection depends on the degree of toning. Full protection only comes with full toning, which I don't do for aesthetic reasons. However, even brief sulfide toning provides better protection than typical selenium toning.

 

[StigHagen]

I usually tone in selenium first to 'improve' the shadows, followed by direct sulfide toning to warm midtones and highlights. I like the slight split-tone effect. Sometimes, depending on subject, I use direct sulfide toning alone.

Archival protection depends on the degree of toning. Full protection only comes with full toning, which I don't do for aesthetic reasons. However, even brief sulfide toning provides better protection than typical selenium toning.

Interesting

I usually lay my paper in a tray of HCA before selenium toning. Would you recommend that with Polysulfide as well, or do you do HCA after toning right before washing? Would the HCA before Polysulfide have any effect on the toning process?

I learned to do HCA before selenium toning from Bruce Barnbaum, but I guess that is another discussion.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Interesting

I usually lay my paper in a tray of HCA before selenium toning. Would you recommend that with Polysulfide as well, or do you do HCA after toning right before washing? Would the HCA before Polysulfide have any effect on the toning process?

I learned to do HCA before selenium toning from Bruce Barnbaum, but I guess that is another discussion.

Let's take it one step at a time. Let's assume you just fixed the print. Residual silver halide, left behind by poor fixing, can cause staining with sulfide and selenium toners, and therefor, prints must be fully fixed before toning. FB prints also benefit from a 10-minute wash, prior to selenium toning, to prevent potential image staining and toner contamination from acid fixer carryover. Prints processed with neutral or alkali fixers do not require a rinse prior to selenium toning.

For direct sulfide toning, a preceding 30-minute wash is sufficient. This wash is also required for direct sulfide toning subsequent to selenium toning, as selenium toner contains significant amounts of thiosulfate itself (that puts a question mark on the use of HCA prior to selenium toning).

With sulfide toning, and to prevent after-toning and possibly over-toning or staining of FB prints, a 5-minute treatment in 10% sodium sulfite, prior to washing, is used as a ‘toner stop bath’. A treatment in washing aid, before the final wash, also acts as a mild toner stop bath, because sodium sulfite is the active ingredient in washing aid. For the same reason, never treat prints in washing aid prior to sulfide toning, as it would impede the toning process.

 

[brian steinberger]

A treatment in washing aid, before the final wash, also acts as a mild toner stop bath, because sodium sulfite is the active ingredient in washing aid. For the same reason, never treat prints in washing aid prior to sulfide toning, as it would impede the toning process.

Ralph, is this is true of both direct and indirect sulfide toners? What about thiocarbamide sepia toners?

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Ralph, is this is true of both direct and indirect sulfide toners? What about thiocarbamide sepia toners?

I better leave this for Tim Rudman to answer (he is the expert on toning), but I assume that it is also true for indirect sulfide toning. However, the preceding bleach may wash much of the sodium sulfite out and lessen the effect.

I have no idea what HCA does to thiocarbamide sepia toners. I don't use them.

 

[Ian Grant]

You can safely use wash aid (Sodium Sulphite) prior to toning as long as you then give the requisite wash prior to toning, after all Sulphite is present in many commercial fixer anyway and it's also better to remove any residual fixer prior to toning as this can prevent staining etc.

HCA first is beneficial.

Ian

 

[RalphLambrecht]

You can safely use wash aid (Sodium Sulphite) prior to toning as long as you then give the requisite wash prior to toning...

Yes, but why use HCA to shorten the wash time and then wash again due to HCA to extend the wash time again? It's simpler and makes more sense to give a long wash without HCA prior to toning (to remove residual fixer and avoid staining) and then use HCA and a full wash after toning. This way HCA stops toning where needed and doesn't get in the way when not needed.

By the way, I found that for direct sulfide toning or selenium toning, a preceding 30-minute wash is sufficient.

... HCA first is beneficial.

Yes, as a toner stop bath!

 

[Ian Grant]

HCA does more than just shorten wash times, it's also helping to remove some of the less soluble silver thiosulpate complexes which can sometimes cause staining in a toner. This is why it's potentially beneficial. Ansel Adams added it to his KRST so it's effects on diminishing Selenium toning are negligible, however in an after bath where the level of Sodium Sulphite is in excess compared to the Selenium salts ans Ammonium Thiosulphate in the paper then it'll aid diffusion so slowing further toning.

I'm not suggesting HCA bathe before Toning is necessary, just it won't do any harm at all and may sometimes be helpful. It doesn't need to be fully washed out either, most Selenium toners like KRST have similar levels of Sulphite as HCA

Incidentally Ilford also suggest adding their wash aid (Sulphite based) to Selenium toner, in their MGIV FB Datasheet, that kind of turns the tables on your thoughts.

Ian

 

[brian steinberger]

I was always taught after fixing, a short wash, 5 min in HCA, then 5 min wash, then tone. And between each toner: a short wash, 5 min HCA, 5 min wash. I know many people on here that use nothing but a short wash between fix and selenium.

 

[hpulley]

Yes, Ilford says you can combine the Washaid with their Selenium toner so that you fix, variable time selenium toner using working strength washaid instead of water for whatever 1+3 to 1+20 dilution you're using followed by (the usual) 10 minute washaid agitation, followed by 30 minutes final running water wash.

But some people say this is wasteful as the washaid will last longer than the toner. I don't know as Ilford says its toner lasts about 25 sheets per litre and as long as you're doing that toning in one session the washaid will also last that long.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

... Incidentally Ilford also suggest adding their wash aid (Sulphite based) to Selenium toner, in their MGIV FB Datasheet, that kind of turns the tables on your thoughts.

Ian

It also turns the table on economy. Mixing HCA and selenium toner prevents you from using either on their own. This way, you end up having them separately as well and throwing the mixture out before both are exhausted.

I prefer to use them separately and when required.

 

[archer]

I agree with Ralph and as an aside, for the last month I've been paper testing and using the exact same procedure for each paper, I've found that for more than forty years, I've been wasting a lot of time and water when it came to toning. When doing paper tests, I was not concerned about the archival permanence of the prints, so I threw caution to the wind and after fixing in an alkaline fixer and a two minute rinse I was able to go directly into the Selenium toner @ 1+19 for five minutes with no staining on double weight fiber base paper and no HCA. In the past, when fixing with an acid fixer such carelessness would have produced terrific staining, hence the need for HCA and at least a ten minute wash prior to toning. The archival procedure I now follow is two bath fixing in an alkaline fixer, a two minute water rinse and selenium toning @ 1+19 for five minutes in KRST, a one minute rinse and five minutes in HCA and 30 minute wash in my archival print washer at ten complete water exchanges in 30 minutes. I realize that this may seem water wasteful to some and incomplete to others but all my tests show an archival level of washing and retained fixer with this procedure, for me and my water quality. I still recommend that one should do their own testing as there are so many variables in this aspect of printing and finishing, that it would be foolhardy to rely on any one persons process to address all the variables.
Denise Libby

 

[Ian Grant]

It also turns the table on economy. Mixing HCA and selenium toner prevents you from using either on their own. This way, you end up having them separately as well and throwing the mixture out before both are exhausted.

I prefer to use them separately and when required.

As KRST (at 1+9) already contains about 1.5% Sodium Sulphite adding HCA to the toner is only increasing this level to about double. This doesn't mean you can't also use HCA before or after the toner to shorten wash times and doesn't shorten the life of the toner, as HCA is so cheap there's little impact on economy either.

A treatment in washing aid, before the final wash, also acts as a mild toner stop bath, because sodium sulfite is the active ingredient in washing aid. For the same reason, never treat prints in washing aid prior to sulfide toning, as it would impede the toning process.

This is clearly not the case, and as I pointed our previously Sulphites are present in most commercial fixers, they are also used in some Direct toners and also after the bleach stage in some Indirect toners.

Personally I don't add HCA to Selenium toner, but I always use a wash-aid prior to and after toning simply to cut wash times and because I only tone the images at the end of a printing session, and sometimes the following day(s). I prefer to Selenium tone in daylight.

Ian

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Different methods work for different people, I guess. I can only recommend to try it both ways and see what works for you.

1. Use HCA+wash prior to toning if you get a staining problem after a regular wash alone (or use an alkali fixer).
2. If on the other hand, you have the feeling that your paper doesn't respond to the toner very well, don't use HCA before toning.

In any case, don't forget to use HCA after toning to slow after-toning and to support a thorough wash. And, if you suffer from excessive after-toning use a 10% sodium sulfite solution (HCA undiluted) as a toner stop bath.

All the best.

 

[StigHagen]

Thanks all for joining the discussion. I certainly learned some new stuff

 

[StigHagen]

Different methods work for different people, I guess. I can only recommend to try it both ways and see what works for you.

1. Use HCA+wash prior to toning if you get a staining problem after a regular wash alone (or use an alkali fixer).
2. If on the other hand, you have the feeling that your paper doesn't respond to the toner very well, don't use HCA before toning.

In any case, don't forget to use HCA after toning to slow after-toning and to support a thorough wash. And, if you suffer from excessive after-toning use a 10% sodium sulfite solution (HCA undiluted) as a toner stop bath.

All the best.

Is Ilford Rapid Fixer an alkali fixer? If not what fixers are? Tried to check the datasheet of Ilford Rapid Fixer, but it didn't help me.

 

[hpulley]

Ilford Rapid fixer is pH 5-5.5 so it is a mild acid.

 

[StigHagen]

Ilford Rapid fixer is pH 5-5.5 so it is a mild acid.

If it is mild, do I then need HCA before or mixed with selenium toning?

 

[hpulley]

If it is mild, do I then need HCA before or mixed with selenium toning?

That seems to be up for debate here. Depending on who you ask or what you read including Ilford's own data sheets you can use their Washaid as part of an optimal 5-10-5 wash cycle before (and after) selenium toning or you can use it while selenium toning as the first step after rapid fixing and optionally in the optmal 5-10-5 wash after toning you can also use Washaid or you can just use 30 minutes of water without Washaid. Many ways to tone a cat it seems...

 

[RalphLambrecht]

If it is mild, do I then need HCA before or mixed with selenium toning?

You don't need it, but it can help if you experience staining without it. Then again, it can impede toning, so try it with and without and then decide. I would not mix it with any toner. The time processing time saved is not worth the flexibility lost to use them separately.

 

[Ian Grant]

Sulphite DOES NOT IMPEDE TONING I tried it today - toning prints treated with & without a HCA bath first and it made zero difference, I used KRST and also a direct Sulphide toner.

If Sulphite is so bad then you should use a fixer without it as well


On the separate question of pH there's a lot of misapprehensions about pH and some common fixers etc. A pH of 5.4 is barely acidic and a pH of 8 is barely alkali, most alkali fixers are close r to neutral just nudging the alkali. We eat and drink things that exceed these pH's all the time. My Aegean/Mediterranean diet uses lemon juice on many foods, that's a pH of close to 2 so quite acidic, coffee can be quite alkaline. It's a logarithmic scale and in real terms the differences between the mild acidic fixers and so called alkali fixers is far less than the pH value seems to imply it's more about hype. The wash water used will have a greater effect in normal use and the mineral content has just as much effect as the alkalinity.

Ian

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Sulphite DOES NOT IMPEDE TONING I tried it today - toning prints treated with & without a HCA bath first and it made zero difference, I used KRST and also a direct Sulphide toner. ...

Ian

Not with selenium toner. Try it with a polysulfide toner and MGIV-FB and see how it reduces after-toning in the wash. For further references see:

Dead Link Removed

Here is a quote from Ryuji Suzuki's site:

In order to prevent staining and halt toning immediately, use of a sulfite "stop bath" is highly recommended (almost obligatory for succssful toning). Prepare a tray containing 20g or more of sodium sulfite anhydrous in a liter of water. Toned prints are immediately transferred in to this "stop bath" tray. After a few good agitaion, the print can be sent to rinse and final wash processes. Without this step, the margins and highlight areas may exhibit pink or yellow staining, reducing the paper base's brilliance.

I tried it; it works.