Ilford HP5+ - uneven development results

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Before you sigh 'oh not another thread with uneven development', please read further.

(Edit: I guess I should have called the thread uneven density results from HP5+.)

Last summer I bought a brick of HP5+ to see if I could dial the film in as a 'plan B' in case Kodak really was going to go under. I used seven of those rolls of film, and after a test roll shot most of them on a trip to Michigan. The test roll was on a textured surface, so I couldn't see anything resembling uneven development.
Regretfully I didn't really have time to look closely at the negs from the trip, but now I came back from a photo trip to Lake Superior, and as I processed the remaining three rolls - uneven density in the negatives...

What proves it to me that it's the film is that I shot a fair amount of TMax 400, which I processed using the same tank, the same reels, the same bottle of D76, water from the same tap, etc, etc, etc. The TMax I processed prior to the HP5+ is perfectly fine, and so is the TMax I processed after. Only the two rolls of HP5+ are bad.
As I look back at the old negatives shot last summer I find some of those to be unevenly developed too, while the Kodak film I used on that trip is perfect.

My method of developing HP5+ is:
2 minute pre-soak
13 minutes in D76 1+1, agitation first minute, then three inversions every minute.
30s indicator stop bath
6 minute Ilford Hypam fix
Wash 25 minutes in film washer
Sprint End Run wash aid
Hang to dry

The film has not been through airport X-rays, has been stored in a 50*F basement, and is well within date (expiration 2015).

Has anybody else experienced this with 120 HP5+ roll film lately?
I have another fresh brick of HP5+ 120 that I will try out when there's an open blue sky around to see if it persists or if it was a fluke.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

I should add to the thread that I've also processed some Fomapan 100 with very nice even results in that same batch of D76, same tank, reels, and so on. I sometimes use Fomapan 100 with pinhole cameras.

Finally, my better half shoots Tri-X in an old box camera, and those negatives exhibit none of the issues either.

 

[MDR]

Could it be the pre-wash? You're not the first to complain about uneven development with HP5 and I start to believe that Ilford films especially their ISO400 emulsions don't really like pre-wash/soak.

 

[JW PHOTO]

Well, I'm sure Simon will be jumping in here at one point, but now I'm on alert. I just bought 4 rolls of HP5+ dated June 2016 and 4 rols of PanF+ 2015. Were you using Xtol replenish? I'll be using WD2d+, Pyrocat-MC, Perceptol 1:2 & 1:3 and Clatons F76+ so I don't know if I'll come up with the same results or not. Pretty cold up on the Big Lake this time of year. I hope you didn't take on any frostbite. Bunch of tough SKandie wood cutters up there. Their about the only ones that can take winter 6 mos. out of the year. I've spent a lot of time up there hunting and fishing and hate to come back across the Big Mac, but this winter I'm even getting sick of Southwest Michigan. I bet you got some nice shots of jutting ice mountains on the shoreline. I'll let you know after this weekend how my HP5+ comes out. JohnW

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Could it be the pre-wash? You're not the first to complain about uneven development with HP5 and I start to believe that Ilford films especially their ISO400 emulsions don't really like pre-wash/soak.

I don't know. I'll try without presoak.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Thanks, John.

No, I used D76 1+1.

The trip itself was wonderful, and I'm thankful most of it got caught on film that doesn't exhibit the problems.

I should mention that the reason I want to switch to HP5+ is that I can get 35mm, 120, and sheets with the same properties. That means a lot to me, and I'm grateful to Ilford for providing it.

It will be interesting to see how the next brick (with different expiration date) fares using the same camera, same everything.

Well, I'm sure Simon will be jumping in here at one point, but now I'm on alert. I just bought 4 rolls of HP5+ dated June 2016 and 4 rols of PanF+ 2015. Were you using Xtol replenish? I'll be using WD2d+, Pyrocat-MC, Perceptol 1:2 & 1:3 and Clatons F76+ so I don't know if I'll come up with the same results or not. Pretty cold up on the Big Lake this time of year. I hope you didn't take on any frostbite. Bunch of tough SKandie wood cutters up there. Their about the only ones that can take winter 6 mos. out of the year. I've spent a lot of time up there hunting and fishing and hate to come back across the Big Mac, but this winter I'm even getting sick of Southwest Michigan. I bet you got some nice shots of jutting ice mountains on the shoreline. I'll let you know after this weekend how my HP5+ comes out. JohnW

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Hi Thomas - what does the uneven development "look" like? Is it subtle non-uniform density in areas that should be uniform, or is it more obvious like blotchy/mottled or streaks or something? Offhand I'm puzzled.

I'll post a neg scan when I get back home.

Incidentally, the picture I posted in the gallery yesterday is from the TMax I processed just prior to the HP5. Shot with the same Hasselblad 500 series camera, and the same film back even.

 

[brian steinberger]

Thomas, I use lots of HP5. I've never had an uneven development issue. I use ID-11 1:1 for 13 minutes. I do not use a pre-soak however. It would certainly be worth a try without a pre-soak.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Thomas, I use lots of HP5. I've never had an uneven development issue. I use ID-11 1:1 for 13 minutes. I do not use a pre-soak however. It would certainly be worth a try without a pre-soak.

I will give it a try. There should be one more exposed roll of HP5 to process.

 

[David Brown]

Thomas, I use lots of HP5. I've never had an uneven development issue. I use ID-11 1:1 for 13 minutes. I do not use a pre-soak however. It would certainly be worth a try without a pre-soak.

Same here with D76 1:1.

 

[Rick A]

Thomas, I suspect the presoak step as the culprit. Either do away with it altogether or extend it to a minimum of three minutes or use two two minute washes. IMHO, too short of a presoak is worse than none at all, as it doesn't allow the AH to fully dissolve, especially in the center of the roll. I use vigorous agitation as well, treat it like a coctail shaker even (butonly for this step).

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Thomas, I suspect the presoak step as the culprit. Either do away with it altogether or extend it to a minimum of three minutes or longer. IMHO, too short of a presoak is worse than none at all, as it doesn't allow the AH to fully dissolve, especially in the center of the roll. I use vigorous agitation as well, treat it like a coctail shaker even (butonly for this step).

Ok. So, no presoak at all, or 5 minute presoak?

And, a follow-up question: Would the remaining AH somehow inhibit development where it remains on the center of the roll?

 

[Gerald C Koch]

Ilford does not recommend that you pre-soak their films. Personally in over 60 years of developing BW film I have never pre-soaked anything. Never observed any uneven development. AFAIAC presoaking is done by people who worry about the wrong things.

 

[nsurit]

When in doubt, read the directions. Ilford says, " A pre-rinse is not recommended as it can lead to uneven processing." I've use HP 5 for a number of years and never had a problem with it. Bill Barber

 

[cliveh]

So if pre-soak is the problem, why do people do it. I have never pre-soaked a film. What am I missing?

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Those are valid points about presoaking.

I used to be of the opinion that presoaking was not necessary. Then I moved into a house with a really cold basement that also doubles as my darkroom. It's 45 degrees in there in the winter. Running a heater makes very little difference.
So, my idea with presoaking has nothing to do with removing dyes or anything like that. I only do it to temper the tank. I pour in 72 degree water, and after two minutes it's about 68 degrees. Then I pour in the developer at 68*F and use a 68*F water bath to keep the temperature constant during the developing cycle.

With Kodak films this was never a problem. Films are very evenly developed. But somehow this brick of Ilford 120 films have significantly uneven densities.

 

[George Collier]

One thing I have noticed with Ilford films - after presoaking, I can see a foamy kind of material that pours out with the presoak water, so when I presoak, I keep 2 more fill-ups of the same temperature water handy and when I dump the presoak, I fill and dump twice more, to get rid of the "foam". It's not terribly thick, but not normal for what I'm used to with Kodak film.
I posted a thread sometime ago to see if anyone else gets this "foam" but got no responses.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

One thing I have noticed with Ilford films - after presoaking, I can see a foamy kind of material that pours out with the presoak water, so when I presoak, I keep 2 more fill-ups of the same temperature water handy and when I dump the presoak, I fill and dump twice more, to get rid of the "foam". It's not terribly thick, but not normal for what I'm used to with Kodak film.
I posted a thread sometime ago to see if anyone else gets this "foam" but got no responses.

IIRC some manufacturers put a wetting agent in their films to insure even development with processing machines. So a presoak does exactly the opposite of what is usually intended. The foam you see may be the wetting agent.

 

[cliveh]

One thing I have noticed with Ilford films - after presoaking, I can see a foamy kind of material that pours out with the presoak water, so when I presoak, I keep 2 more fill-ups of the same temperature water handy and when I dump the presoak, I fill and dump twice more, to get rid of the "foam". It's not terribly thick, but not normal for what I'm used to with Kodak film.
I posted a thread sometime ago to see if anyone else gets this "foam" but got no responses.

This could perhaps be a residue of wetting agent from your last process.

 

[Ian Grant]

Only times I've had uneven development of B&W films was when I used a pre-soak, that's in 50+ years of processing. There's zero benefits whatsoever to me in a pre-soak, particularly when the manufacturer doesn't recommend one.

I have been shooting quite a bit of HP5 and with superb results.

Ian

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Only times I've had uneven development of B&W films was when I used a pre-soak, that's in 50+ years of processing. There's zero benefits whatsoever to me in a pre-soak, particularly when the manufacturer doesn't recommend one.

I have been shooting quite a bit of HP5 and with superb results.

Ian

I know that there's no direct benefit to doing a presoak, but for me it was a thing of pure utility, Ian.
To get my developing tank from 45 degrees to 68 degrees before I pour chemistry in. Otherwise it's tough to be consistent with temperature.

I will have to devise a new way of tempering the tank without pouring liquid into it.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Strangely, I've shot many rolls of 35mm HP5 without having this problem.

 

[cliveh]

I know that there's no direct benefit to doing a presoak, but for me it was a thing of pure utility, Ian.
To get my developing tank from 45 degrees to 68 degrees before I pour chemistry in. Otherwise it's tough to be consistent with temperature.

I will have to devise a new way of tempering the tank without pouring liquid into it.

Just pour in the dev and temper the film not the tank.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Just pour in the dev and temper the film not the tank.

Sorry, but how do you do that?

The tank is the same temp as the basement. When I pour chemistry in it, the temperature of the developer is lowered between one and five degrees, depending on how cold the room is.

 

[Ian Grant]

I know that there's no direct benefit to doing a presoak, but for me it was a thing of pure utility, Ian.
To get my developing tank from 45 degrees to 68 degrees before I pour chemistry in. Otherwise it's tough to be consistent with temperature.

I will have to devise a new way of tempering the tank without pouring liquid into it.

Why is your dev tank so much colder than the rooms you live in ? Maybe store in a warm place. In the UK in the winter I just warm my tank after loading under a mixer tap to ensure there's no drop in the dev temp after filling. I guess I do it without thinking and I keep the whole process less than + or - 1ºC of the chosen process temperature with little effort.

Ian