Ilford FB Warmtone Semi-Matt vs. Fomabrom Varient 123- experiences?

Mark Fisher said:

The Fomabrom I use is the glossy finish. I was unaware that the finish affected the tones. That might explain why I've seen some really well controlled lith prints in Fomabrom when I have a really hard time with that paper....it is a different paper!

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Indeed. The velvet surface I believe has meant that Foma has had to alter the emulsion as well. It's the only way the Foma 123 lith results can be explained, and how smooth they are compared to the 'salt and pepper' Foma 112 prints.

Sim2 said:

One thing to possibly note with MGWT - I think you mentioned in your original post that you tape the wet paper to glass to dry? I used this technique with great success with standard MG paper but when using MGWT the paper got glued to the glass and had to be soaked to lift it off the glass. I was using archival artists watercolor tape for this. I did read somewhere, and can't remember where, that the base soaks or draws the adhesive from the paper tape under or into the print paper. Anyway, taping MGWT was a resounding failure for me! *other users experience may differ*

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I've asked around on APUG about this, and from that I have become reasonably convinced that if properly handled Ilford MGWT will not pose a problem to the 'watercolour tape method'. Of course the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

At the moment I'm still flip-flopping somewhat so far as actually choosing a paper is concerned. I think the choice will be for Ilford MGWT in Semi-matt eventually, but I want to give my mind a bit more time to cool down first.

Regardless, thanks for the information APUG has provided me & all the others with- it's been very helpful.

Sander

sandermarijn said:

At the moment I'm still flip-flopping somewhat so far as actually choosing a paper is concerned. I think the choice will be for Ilford MGWT in Semi-matt eventually, but I want to give my mind a bit more time to cool down first.

Sander

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Hopefully it will not be the last paper you buy. The point is to buy something and learn to hate it and move on... Join the crowd.

Bruce Osgood said:

Hopefully it will not be the last paper you buy. The point is to buy something and learn to hate it and move on... Join the crowd.

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How does that align with the advice (that everyone touts and nobody seems to follow ) to stick to one film and developer and learn to exploit that till the end of a decade?

I guess your point is not so much in buying and moving, but rather in the "learn"-part, in which case all advices point in the same direction.

Buy, learn, share, move on. Got it!

One month down the road and I'm still mostly where I was: contemplating. It's not easy to decide between all these papers. I've made some small progress though.

APUG'er jelke and I did a small paper exchange. He received Kentmere, I got some of Jelke's Adox Variotone (Glossy). I tried it out over the weekend (dismal weather here). And whow, this Adox/Moersch/Harman Variotone paper is really good!

I made four prints (18x24cm/7x9.5") of the same 35mm Neopan 400 negative, a reference negative that I know well. Two of the prints were left untoned, the other two were Selenium toned, for 4' and 10' respectively (Adox Selentoner 1+15).

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Some observations:

- Adox Variotone has an excellent tonal scale, from full black to brilliant white, and with subtle detail in the shadows. Untoned it is definitely nicer to my eye than my to-go-to paper, Kentmere FPVC (Glossy is the only finish still available). I did not make a direct comparison (same everything) between Variotone and Kentmere, but I have printed my reference negative on Kentmere in another size (30x40cm/12x16") before. Kentmere has muddier shadows and not as nice a tonal scale. That said, the difference isn't huge; both are fine papers on their own.

- Adox Variotone is tough. It's thick- as thick as Kentmere, and both are thicker than Adox MCC 110. I like thicker papers. Variotone doesn't kink easily; I tried and found it pretty much idiot-proof. This paper is 'mechanically' excellent.

- Adox Variotone Glossy's surface looks roughly the same to me as Kentmere FPVC Glossy. I dried all four sheet of Variotone to room temperature air (overnight). This gives a nice egg-shell finish. Very familiar, no surprises here.

- About toning in Selenium then:

APUG'er MarcoB 'warned' me in advance that Selenium works a bit differently on Kentmere than it does with most other papers. He was right! Selenium gives Kentmere a very visible boost in contrast/punch, by noticeably darkening the shadows, changing the tonal curve there quite a lot. Selenium is almost a must-use for Kentmere FPVC, it really helps you get the most out of this paper.

In the case of Adox Variotone the results are more subtle. There is no such dramatic increase in Dmax, not such an extra punch. In fact I couldn't see much of a change in contrast at all; maybe I'm spoilt with Kentmere in this respect.
The colour effects are also different. Kentmere turns purple-reddish, Variotone goes more towards brownish. Both discolourations are appealing, I wouldn't call one better than the other.

I toned one Variotone print for 4', another for 10'. There is a small difference, but most of the toning seems to happen in the first few minutes. Even with a untoned print kept next to the toning print it I found it difficult to know when the change in colour was still happening and when it had slowed down; I should have toned a bit shorter for meaningful results. Now both times gave more or less the same result.

Kentmere and Variotone tone (i.e. change colour) about as fast, but because Variotone's change in appearance is less towards the punchy, the toning process seems to happen slower- I don't believe it really is slower, only different (i.e. change in colour rather than Dmax).
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Below are uncorrected flatbed scans of three Variotone prints of my reference negative (29 June 2008, Sarek N.P., Sweden: view towards the valley Njoatsosvágge, from a location near Sähkok mountain). The first is untoned, the second Se-toned for 4', the third for 10'.

Not all three prints were exactly identically exposed, I did some burning of the sides and sky, and this wasn't very exact; these prints/scans are really just a play-around, not science. The colour of the scans on my laptop screen (uncalibrated, again no science) matches those of the actual prints quite well.

What am I trying to show? That Adox Variotone responds well to Selenium, that is turns a brownish colour rather than Kentmere's purple-red, that Se-toning does not so much affect the overall contrast (not as much as with Kentmere that is), and that the tonality of this paper is fine (and excellent if you were to look at the prints themselves, instead of at scans).

1. Adox Variotone, developed in Amaloco AM6006 (neutral developer), no toning


2. Adox Variotone, developed in Amaloco AM6006 (neutral developer), toned in Selenium 1+15 for 4'


3. Adox Variotone, developed in Amaloco AM6006 (neutral developer), toned in Selenium 1+15 for 10'


Variotone is an excellent paper that tones well in Selenium. Kentmere is also a fine paper, one that tones differently, not worse or better. Variotone has the edge in terms of tonality but I find Kentmere a fine paper in its own right (it *requires* Selenium toning though).

I think I will be perfectly happy working with Kentmere FPVC Glossy for some time to come. Or maybe not :confused:.

Now that I've looked at the scans and at the prints themselves a couple of times more, I wonder how I came to say that Variotone's Dmax is not so much affected by Selenium toning. The Selenium seems to have taken away a lot of shadow detail really.

It may also be that the untoned print was just printed a bit better (shadows more open). A good way to settle this would be to tone that first untoned print as well. I think I will do that.

It's hard drawing conclusions on the basis of a few prints, lesson learned. Still fun to play around with high-quality new-to-me paper!

I toned the previously untoned print as well now. Below is before and after toning in Selenium 1+15 for 3 minutes.

Untoned


Selenium 1+15, 3 minutes


Adox Variotone reacts more heftily to Selenium than I expected (on the basis of reports by others) and also more than I initially thought (on the basis of my own early experience with the paper). Not only does Se discolour the print, it also significantly darkens the shadows. Somehow, what it doesn't do as much is give an impression of extra punch, contrary to Kentmere FPVC and Selenium.

I consider the extra punch of Kentmere-plus-Selenium a very attractive feature of that paper. Variotone has enough punch of its own; I'd say that for this reason Variotone is perhaps the 'better' (i.e. nicer to me) paper 'out of the box'.

Overall though, Se-toning included that is, I wouldn't dare call a clear winner. More playing around required, fortunately. More and different ways of toning, specifically.

But are you printing more open for the prints that *will* be se toned? You want to print straight and then print with less contrast for the prints that will be toned. Then compare with the untoned for the same paper afterward. The selenium will extend the blacks downward and you need to account for this ahead of time.

clayne said:

But are you printing more open for the prints that *will* be se toned? You want to print straight and then print with less contrast for the prints that will be toned. Then compare with the untoned for the same paper afterward. The selenium will extend the blacks downward and you need to account for this ahead of time.

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That's what I always do with Kentmere: try to keep the blacks just below Dmax before toning.

The above was just to see if/how Variotone reacts to Selenium. Indeed in actual use it is prudent to print a bit softer than in this 'test'.

Just playing around and sharing!

Various KRST 1+20 Variotone prints I've done, Se almost always draws towards light magenta but can be controlled somewhat:

Is KRST the same as Selenium? I did a quick search but can't exactly figure out the differences.

Nice samples, I like the subtleness of the discolouration, as well as the colour itself. At least it looks pretty subtle to me.

Can you recommend any other 'hot' (good ones I mean) toners for Variotone?

KRST is just Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner, the standard toner that we use over here. Any Se toner will do the same thing though. I don't have a huge amount of prints done on Variotone as I mostly print on Emaks, but try Se 1+20 for 2 minutes, washed for 20-30 minutes, followed by a strong brown toner.

Brown toner- I will look into that, thanks.

Kuching- exactly 10 years ago that I visited. Hot & humid!

Sim2 said:

Hallo,

One thing to possibly note with MGWT - I think you mentioned in your original post that you tape the wet paper to glass to dry? I used this technique with great success with standard MG paper but when using MGWT the paper got glued to the glass and had to be soaked to lift it off the glass. I was using archival artists watercolor tape for this. I did read somewhere, and can't remember where, that the base soaks or draws the adhesive from the paper tape under or into the print paper. Anyway, taping MGWT was a resounding failure for me! *other users experience may differ*

Knowing the cost of 20x16 MGWT paper perhaps a trial pack of 25 10x8s might help in finding out if the paper suits your workflow as well as the final appearance?

Sim2.

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sandermarijn said:

I've asked around on APUG about this, and from that I have become reasonably convinced that if properly handled Ilford MGWT will not pose a problem to the 'watercolour tape method'. Of course the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

At the moment I'm still flip-flopping somewhat so far as actually choosing a paper is concerned. I think the choice will be for Ilford MGWT in Semi-matt eventually, but I want to give my mind a bit more time to cool down first.

Regardless, thanks for the information APUG has provided me & all the others with- it's been very helpful.

Sander

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Hallo there,

Popping back top revisit this thread! I got to thinking that having given my previous experiences on taping MGWT I hadn't tried it again recently, so... I had a couple of 8x8 MGWT prints that I wasn't happy with after toning and thought, the're waste anyway so nothing ventured, nothing gained.

One print went the standard route of hanging, air dry then under weights, another print went down on the glass with the tape. I was very parsimonious with the water wetting the tape, apart from a small section on one corner, which lifted, the print dried flat and most important, for this, did not get stuck to the glass - hurrah!

The only difference in my routine was to use the minimum amount of water to wet the tape whereas previously the tape had been wetted through a saucer of water. Perhaps the paper base has changed, perhaps minimal water is the key. What I do know is that previously MGWT got glued when using the same process MG did not but with minimal tape wetting the current MGWT appears not to stick.

Hope this might be of some help to you.

Sim@.

To me it is, Sim, thanks for doing and sharing your 'little' experiment. It seems that soaked tape isn't a good idea, not with any paper, probably.

Meanwhile I've come to the sort-of-conclusion that Kentmere FPVC is 'good enough' for me. Yes, there are 'better' papers out there, but when I like Kentmere enough, why change?

And, though I should hate to say, a 50-pack of 16x20/40x50 for 96 GBP is an unbeatable bargain. I would even still be supporting Ilford!

Seems like I've made a nice little circle these last few months: just bought a 50 sheet box of 16x20"/40x50cm Kentmere FPVC Finegrain. This is the discontinued semi-matte surface that I like so much.

I thought that all stock would be depleted, and it probably nearly is, but anyway, when I was carefully browsing the local store's stock the other day I found one pack left, in the right size and with the new-style Harman label. Yahoo! The price was alright, and buying a true Harman product from a local store I felt like doing three good things in once. Even more yahoo.

So I've ended up where I started the thread, the only real change being the surface finish (glossy to semi-matte, which I consider a step forward, at this moment at least, as tastes tend to change). Not a useless exercise at all though. I got to try Adox Variotone and I've created for myself a reasonably complete picture of what's left in store.

Some other papers I will want to try a bit more of (but in a smaller size) are Ilford MGWT, Adox Variotone, Adox MCC 110, Adox Nuance (aka EMAKS), and possibly more. There's just too much good stuff around!

Thanks for all your input,
Sander