Ilford FB Warmtone Emulsion Damage

[Martin Aislabie]

I have just tried some of the Ilford Warmtone FB Glossy Paper and have had terrible trouble with very easily damaged emulsion during a wash with hand warm water.

I didn’t handle the paper while it was in the Dev/Stop/Fix but when I shuffled the prints while they were being washed the Emulsion felt very slippery almost slimy to the touch.

I then noticed prints were scratching each others print emulsion as they moved about in the wash water.

Then I inadvertently found I could scratch the emulsion off with the back of my finger nails as I brushed a floating unsupported print.

I have never used the newer style WT white paper & emulsion but never had any such problems with the old style cream paper base & emulsion.

I then went back to conventional MGFB & all the paper handling difficulties stopped.

I have never had paper handling problems before & have not changed my process/equipment/chemicals

Have I just stumbled across a bad batch of FBWT – or is it always like this?

The colour of the emulsion is fabulous but I will have to try something else if it’s all like this

Dev = Ilford Multigrade
Stop = Kodak Max Stop (acetic acid)
Fix = Hypam @ 1:4

Thanks

Martin

 

[Photo Engineer]

Any water that is hand warm is usually taken to be at or above human body temperature. If this is so in your case, then that explains your result.

If it is even much above 75 F, this may be a problem.

PE

 

[pentaxuser]

Martin PE beaten me to the punch. You might be surprised at the temp of a liquid that feels warm to the hands. My guess is that if over a 100F is tepid then warm might be closer to 120F so I was going to make the same observation but I suppose it still begs the question of why other FB emulsions weren't softened. Maybe WT is particularly susceptible.

Anything up to say 80F should feel distinctly cool to the hands

pentaxuser

 

[PhotoJim]

It might depend on your hands. To me, 20C feels tepid, but 25 feels slightly warm. 30 feels warm. 50 feels hot, as in shower hot.

 

[Softie]

120F is the pain threshold, and 80F is noticeably warm.

If Ilford Warmtone is sloughing off its emulsion at 80F, then it's going to be tricky to selenium tone at 75F.

 

[Martin Aislabie]

I read PEs comments with interest (as ever)

Hand warm (to me) is 35~37C or there abouts

I am suprised the emulsion was soften so much as such a low temperature.

As I said in the OP - I never have had the problem before and didn't have it later that day with other Ilford FB papers.

Martin

 

[Ray Rogers]

Hand warm (to me) is 35~37C or there abouts

I am suprised the emulsion was soften so much as such a low temperature.

Martin,
35-37 C is not really such a low temperature for B/W emulsions.
We have been spoiled by strong hardening that is possible, but unnecessary in many cases. If you watch your temperatures and hold them around 20 C.
your problem should go away I would imagine.

Ray

 

[Vaughn]

I develop my carbon prints in 120F water -- that is Hot! (Hot tubs are suppose to be about 104F)

I suppose one could use a fixer with hardener to toughen the emulsion up a bit if the problem continues.

Vaughn

 

[panastasia]

Forte FB papers had a 'tropical' designation (written on box). I assume this means elevated processing temperatures are possible - I've often had these papers soaking up to 4 days during summer months (80F+) without any problems - which makes me wonder why all papers aren't made this way.

 

[fschifano]

That's hot. We're talking about paper coated with something not terribly different from hardened Jello.

 

[Larry Bullis]

I had trouble with things sticking to the emulsion of the old WT as well. Dry mounting required a cover sheet that wouldn't contribute lint fibers.

Hardeners are available separately or can be mixed yourself. I just dragged out one of my copies of Wall and Jordan. Here's Kodak F1a (kodak's F1 fixer contains this in addition to the fixer, but it can be mixed separately).

Water (~125°F) ...................................1700 ml
Sodium sulphite......................................240 g
Acetic asid (28%)....................................750 ml
Potassium alum.......................................240 g
Cold water to make................................4000 ml

 

[panastasia]

That's hot. We're talking about paper coated with something not terribly different from hardened Jello.

I was using packaged Kodak Fixer in powdered form (acid hardening).

 

[Simon R Galley]

Dear Panastasia,

Take down the batch number off the box and send it to me and I will have it checked out : I have already checked and we have no outstanding QC's relating to emulsion lift at this time on any paper product. 'Adhesion' is one of the 14 physical QC tests ( not including sensitization tests ) carried out during the manufacturing, curing and finishing processes of ILFORD FB papers, elevated temperatures exascerbate 'lift' but I would expect this product to be more than robust enough to avoid lift.

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

 

[Marco B]

Martin, take Simon's offer and have them check if this may be a known problem batch. I have used Ilford FB Warmtone a lot, and never had any of the issues you describe, even with multiple prints floating around. I never use hardener.

Yes, as with all papers, the emulsion may and will soften up a bit, but I never had trouble with prints scratching each other, nor anything even close to an emulsion lift off.

And I even have had this paper in pretty warm / hot water for removing watercolor tape attached to it for drying. I sometimes, due to time restraints, decide to dry a print first before toning it, using the watercolor-tape method of taping a print to glass. Than, the next day, I take it of the glass and usually remove the tape by floating it in hand-warm water of about 40C. After that, when the tape is removed, I sepia tone it. Never had any of the issues you describe...

Marco

 

[panastasia]

Dear Panastasia,
Take down the batch number off the box and send it to me and I will have it checked out :
Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

Martin Aislabieis is the OP. I was refering to the outstanding durability of Forte papers with the 'tropical' designation that seem to withstand abuse - excessive soak time - as compaired to other brands in my experience.

Paul