Ilford 70mm Film Special?

Martin Reed · Feb 4, 2009

As a possible extension of the Harman special sheet film production scheme, is there any interest in something similar in FP4/HP5 in 70mm perforated?

Having run it past the planners at Harman, they are prepared to cut it as a special order for Silverprint. We would have to order a minimum of 60 cans of 30 metres, in either film type, and keeping it priced as competitively as possible it would sell at £80.00 + VAT per roll. This price is not significantly more than the equivalent sq. metres in 35mm 30 metres, so Harman are being supportive here. We would take a chance in holding some stock, but would like around 60-70% of it covered with committed orders to go ahead.

When we first discussed it, Simon Galley estimated it would need a £20-30k order to kick it off - this then came down to 120 cans, so 60 cans is a big concession from Harman. So is there enough of a user base in 70mm to keep a regular supply of the format on tap, in very popular emulsions? We await the response with interest.

spoolman · Feb 4, 2009

Hello Martin:I would be interested in one can of each but it would be to facilitate re-spooling 116/616 spools and backing paper for re-use in old cameras.I don't know if the perforations would be a problem and I doubt that Harman would produce the order in both perforated and non-perforated for those who would want to do what I would be using it for.Any thoughts on this?.

I realize that there is still 70mm non-perforated film by Kodak still available in the U.S. from B&H, but two more types would give a better selection to choose from and I realize that to ship it to either Canada or the U.S. would involve significant costs as well as the exchange rate but I would be willing to take that into consideration.Just my two cents worth.

Doug

Martin Reed · Feb 4, 2009

spoolman said:
..... I doubt that Harman would produce the order in both perforated and non-perforated for those who would want to do what I would be using it for.Any thoughts on this?....
Doug

I'm pretty sure not possible, any making would be one type, one packing, but I'll ask the question. The proposed 60 x 30m order is very small to a factory on the scale of Harman.

vitus · Feb 4, 2009

I have a last can of Ilford HP5 Plus aerial 70mm x 30m unperforated film - 3 years beyond the expiration date. No apparent problem with that stuff so far. Since it is compatible with my Graflex RH50 back only it would be nice to try the new, fresh batch with type II perf. with my Hassy 70mm backs.
Martin, I would be interested in one can of HP5 and FP4 type II perf. 70mm films.

Jan Wilhelm

Tom Kershaw · Feb 4, 2009

Does anyone know if there is a Bronica SQ series 70mm back? Additionally, how does one go about developing 70mm film? - obviously a reel to load the film would be the essential item.

2nd. Would the film be provided in camera ready loads?

Tom.

Terence · Feb 4, 2009

I'd be up for 3 or 4 rolls of FP4.

Anyone who knows a source of new cannisters, please PM me.

PHOTOTONE · Feb 5, 2009

Just a comment that if you are contemplating getting a roll or several of 70mm 30 meter film, you should have your processing methods all sorted out. Do you have a 70mm reel? The lengths normally found in 70mm cassettes (if you are reloading) are long and require a special large reel and tank. Of course if you purchase a "bulk" roll you can cut your length to suit when you reload your cassettes. If you use a custom pro lab for your processing, you need to give them a call and see if they can handle 70mm.

Alex Bishop-Thorpe · Feb 5, 2009

Where does one even find a 70mm bulk loader?
I'm interested, but I don't own any 70mm equipment. I just don't shoot that much medium format, I suppose, but I'd like to see this accomplished.

Martin Reed · Feb 5, 2009

Hewes Products have always produced 70mm spirals, and they're still in the range in 3 and 5 metres. If this came about we would act as a stockist for them.

http://www.hewes.co.uk/

70mm cassettes appear regularly on ebay;

http://photography.shop.ebay.co.uk/?_from=R40&_trksid=m38.l1313&_nkw=70mm+cassette&_sacat=625

Tanks are a different issue, the easiest option might be just using 3 gallon deep tanks.

delphine · Feb 5, 2009

I would be interested in one can, HP5 preferably.

Best

Delphine

Terence · Feb 5, 2009

I already have a loader and developing reel and tank. However, while the cassettes are reloadable, they are not infinitely reloadable. Similar to 35mm cans, the felt becomes matted, etc and the "spring" of the can loosens. Eventually light leaks develop. So while I have a stash of decent "users", they probably won't last me through the bulk rolls of film I already have. eBay is an okay source for them, but there's no guarantee they'll be light-tight and it's tough to really judge their condition without shooting a few rolls through them. I have beautiful cans that look new, but leak like a sieve.

johnsk01 · Feb 5, 2009

I would be interested in 5 cans, either type.

Thanks

Kevin

keithwms · Feb 5, 2009

I'd also be interested in a fair amount of fp4+ and/or maybe pan f.

I'll say 5 cans of fp4+ for now.

Nick Zentena · Feb 5, 2009

Tom Kershaw said:
Does anyone know if there is a Bronica SQ series 70mm back? Additionally, how does one go about developing 70mm film? - obviously a reel to load the film would be the essential item.

2nd. Would the film be provided in camera ready loads?

Tom.

There are/were various 70mm backs for the ETR I've got a non-working third party one. I'm not sure what's wrong with it. The SQ likely had similar third party backs.

Developing? I've got X-ray reels. Cheap plastic reels. Too big for any know light proof tank. Plus I've got a couple reels intended for 116. The Xray reels are better.

The rare 5' Jobo reel is hard to find often expensive and only takes 5'. But fits a Jobo 2500 tank.

Hewes makes 70mm reels. Not cheap.

FilmIs4Ever · Feb 6, 2009

Count me in for a couple hundred feet, err umm, I mean 60.96m ;-)

FilmIs4Ever · Feb 6, 2009

Martin Reed said:
As a possible extension of the Harman special sheet film production scheme, is there any interest in something similar in FP4/HP5 in 70mm perforated?

Due to the fact that you're cutting from the same stock as 35mm, wouldn't that eliminate the stock limitations you've had with sheet film?

As Tri-X and I think Plus-X in the U.K. are still available from Kodak, I would think that maybe one of the Deltas would be a better choice. . .

But in any case, I'd like to try out whatever you can put together an order for.

Q.G. · Feb 6, 2009

Terence said:
I already have a loader and developing reel and tank. However, while the cassettes are reloadable, they are not infinitely reloadable. Similar to 35mm cans, the felt becomes matted, etc and the "spring" of the can loosens. [...] I have beautiful cans that look new, but leak like a sieve.

You can change the felt. Put new felt in.

Martin Reed · Feb 6, 2009

Story so far

Thanks to the people who have put their hands up so far, it would certainly seem possible to get something going on the basis of this interest, especially as the provisional orders include multiple rolls.

I can see the argument for going to Delta, but unfortunately it's so minority in usage relative to the standard emulsions, that it would limit the take-up and probably kill the whole thing. If FP4/HP5 could be established in 70mm, the Delta emulsions could follow.

Having checked with Hewes today, the 70mm spirals are available in both capacities from stock, and are round the £50 mark, which doesn't seem too bad for a large piece of S/S kit like that. Hewes don't supply any sort of deep tank cage, but recommend using a central rod for agitation in a deep tank.

One downside is that all potential orders so far seem to be from the US, which means Silverprint is in the wrong continent to be co-ordinating this. If a specialist store in the US is interested, I expect they can get the same deal. However we can send, shipping costs by surface mail from the UK should not be onerous, but does anyone have anything definitive for the X-ray risk for film on surface mail from UK to US?

Tom Kershaw · Feb 6, 2009

I can see the argument for going to Delta, but unfortunately it's so minority in usage relative to the standard emulsions, that it would limit the take-up and probably kill the whole thing. If FP4/HP5 could be established in 70mm, the Delta emulsions could follow.

The Delta films are in a significant minority in sales terms compared to FP4 Plus / HP5 Plus in formats currently stocked?

Tom.

FilmIs4Ever · Feb 7, 2009

I don't think it is reasonable to get more than two emulsions made from one company in 70mm ever again, unless you're talking about actual aerial film.

I think it would be better for Ilford (as apparantly Tri-X is still available here in the states) to offer something in this size that Kodak doesn't.

Don't get me wrong. I shoot 2 1/4 x 2 3/4", so it's not as if I have a problem with older emulsions in this size, just that offering Delta 100 and 400 instead would give Ilford an edge over Kodak's offering and possibly encourage more people to flip flop or encourage people that aren't fans of Tri-X to give the format a try.

I definitely think this format would appeal to all of the people I see (at least on here, never met one personally) who gripe about Ilford's only supplying 120-sized film.

You can cram 65 shots in a 70mm cassette, more than three rolls of 220!

If Kodaks is any indication though, it would be best to consolidate to just two, maybe just one emulsion. Delta 400 would definitely be my choice over HP5.

Chazzy · Feb 7, 2009

A pity that there are no 70mm backs for my Koni-Omega. I could get a Cine-Rollex for the Technika, but I've never seen the point of shooting medium format on a 4x5, unless one needs the movements. Maybe I could warm up to the idea. If so, my preference would be for fp4+ and hp5+, not the Delta films. Progress be damned!

FilmIs4Ever · Feb 7, 2009

I think the big, looming problem with 70mm is the cassettes at this point. Mags will last more-or-less indefinitely, but there is an aging supply of 70mm cassettes on the market. I've bought an amply amount on the Bay, but long-term, if it dries up, it could be a problem.

Sure you can replace the felt, but the METAL can be a problem. Paint flakes off of it when you tape around the ends for fear of light leaks from warped metal connections, and this can cause dust and dirt. Plus paint fleck makes for an even looser fit and there is no protection from further metal ware.

Kodak used to make them, but no longer, and we all know how Kodak is about sharing old technology with other companies. Linhof also used to maake them. If they are still in business as the same company there might be a chance of getting a batch manufactured. After all, they are just hunks of metal.

Even better, though less likely, would be to make them from plastic, like with the screw-top caps. IDK with the tar-drop top shape if it would be possible to engineer a design with a screw top. And a new spec. would be costly.

Does anyone know if there were/are any other manufacturers of the cassettes?

Maybe it would be possible to get an aerial photography company, as they still use 70mm, to go in with individual purchasers on a cassette order.

As to wanting Hp5 over Delta, why haven't you been getting Tri-X all this time? Whereas with color films, it is easy to see a different, B&W films of the same type are far more subtle and difficult to tell apart, unless it is physically poor like some of Kodak's papers used to be. Ilford beat them hands-down there.

Martin Reed · Feb 7, 2009

Tri-X keeps getting quoted, but can anybody give a 7 digit Kodak catalogue code for perforated 70mm Tri-X film, which is reasonably easily available? Rather than looking for crumbs off the table, remnants from industrial 70mm applications, wouldn't it be better to try to get a steady supply of conventional camera films?

One reason for pushing the 70mm 'envelope' is it is at present a dying format, BUT the remnants are still around, plenty of 70mm backs, at least for Hasselblad, and it wouldn't take much to at least keep it hanging on in there. Then it is a viable alternative if various 120 films start to be wound up, principally because it can be cut from the same stock as 35mm films. Fantasising a little, Ektar 100 could be made available in 70mm format very easily!

FilmIs4Ever · Feb 7, 2009

Hi Martin. I don't know the CAT # OTOH, but I know that there is one. I think it *may* eventually disappear, not from discontinuation, per se, but because of an un-Godly high minimum order.

There is new stuff still at B&H. I'm not talking about 30-year expired shit sitting in someone's freezer (OR FRIDGE!) that still "good as new" ;-)

Actually checking on B&H's site right now, it isn't listed anymore. I just don't think it would be wise to introduce an identical product if it is still available. I will check with my Kodak "insider", just to make sure on this though.

I agree with you that 70mm is an exciting format for making it easier to bring 35mm only films into 70mm.

europanorama · Feb 7, 2009

different sizes-not only 70mm

i would offer the best films-delta 100/400 in different sizes. all without paper.

70mm DP, 70 UP, 35MM UP, 120/220 all long roll 30m.
HEWES
can the hewes-70mm-reel be loaded in jobo-2500-tanks?

Ilford 70mm Film Special?

Martin Reed

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spoolman

Martin Reed

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vitus

Tom Kershaw

Terence

PHOTOTONE

Alex Bishop-Thorpe

Martin Reed

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delphine

Terence

johnsk01

keithwms

Nick Zentena

FilmIs4Ever

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Q.G.

Martin Reed

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Tom Kershaw

FilmIs4Ever

Chazzy

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Martin Reed

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europanorama

Ilford 70mm Film Special?

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