Ilford 120 Backing Paper Issue? (Edit: probably not)

Tom Kershaw · Feb 17, 2020

Lachlan Young said:
I wonder if it's possibly some sort of microscopic variance in the film width which causes tiny abrasions at some stage in manufacture or exposure, then exposure to the process chemistry loosens it from the base?

I have wondered this as well, as I have thought I've seen some width variation (with HP5 Plus) but may have been imagining things. I have seen serious width variation with Maco's 'Rollei' brand films to the extent I will no longer use their products, so this is evidently a possible manufacturing issue with '120' film. One feature I have noticed is that Kodak T-Max film printed info on the top and bottom, eg. TMY-2 etc. is always positioned on the same part of the film strip, whereas the Harman version 'ILFORD FP4 PLUS' et al varies in location relative to the edge of the film; perhaps they need to look at the alignment of their '120' confectioning machinery.

Lachlan Young · Feb 17, 2020

Tom Kershaw said:
I have wondered this as well, as I have thought I've seen some width variation (with HP5 Plus) but may have been imagining things. I have seen serious width variation with Maco's 'Rollei' brand films to the extent I will no longer use their products, so this is evidently a possible manufacturing issue with '120' film. One feature I have noticed is that Kodak T-Max film printed info on the top and bottom, eg. TMY-2 etc. is always positioned on the same part of the film strip, whereas the Harman version 'ILFORD FP4 PLUS' et al varies in location relative to the edge of the film; perhaps they need to look at the alignment of their '120' confectioning machinery.

The edge info is printed through a stencil/ mask, so presumably it has to be re-aligned every time a new 'doughnut' of film is numbered and branded - I've also seen a recent 70mm print where someone's attention evidently wandered during the DTS soundtrack printing (not a massively dissimilar process I think) and the soundtrack careered off the edge of the print...

mpirie · Feb 18, 2020

I've gotten into the habit of running my first finger and thumb down the edge of the film (keeping away from the image area) as it comes out of the reel to try and catch any filaments. Seems to be successful so far.

I also suffered strange wavy marks on the film base which it transpired, came from pre-washing the film before the developer went in. Again, stopping the pre-wash stopped the markings on the film.

Mike

RalphLambrecht · Feb 18, 2020

Mcsushiburger said:
Hello everybody,

I have just shot a test roll of Delta 100 to test a new developer and got the unfortunate result you see as as attached. This is a crop of an image that shows the defect. The film is very fresh with an expiration date of June 2020. Here is what I did: The film was stored at room temperature. I put the roll inside my RZ67 and went outside, where the temperature is around 10° Celsius (or 50° Farenheit) and shot the roll in about 15 minutes and went back inside. I loaded the roll into my development tank immediately (hands got a bit sweaty) and developed as usual. Now I wonder if this defect is the result of manufacturing error, or if the film managed to get exposed to excess humidity due to my handling and the rapid changes in temperature I subjected it to. Also, since it was a test roll, I didn't keep the washing temperature at 20° Celsius (68°F) as I usually do, so the washing water was at around 14°C(57°F). Has anyone had similar artifacts or does anyone know if my mishandling of the film is likely to blame? Thanks!
View attachment 217146

The end of analog photography is very near

Tom Kershaw · Feb 18, 2020

RalphLambrecht said:
The end of analog photography is very near

Hi Ralph,

I'm not sure I understand your statement?

Tom

pentaxuser · Feb 18, 2020

Tom Kershaw said:
Hi Ralph,

I'm not sure I understand your statement?

Tom

Tom I thought his statement was very clear but I assume that this is his dry sense of humour. If he actually means it then Henning's forecast is wide of the mark at least as far as Ralph is concerned

pentaxuser

Tom Kershaw · Feb 18, 2020

There does seem to be more reports of '120' film issues than in the past, but this may not be an accurate impression.

Mcsushiburger · Jan 10, 2021

Hey, op here. I had the same thing happen to me again with some Delta 100 and did some serious research into my process. I believe I have successfully eliminated it. I had shot outdoors at around 90% RH and 0°C, so I thought I had a condensation issue with some backing paper interaction at hand. So I tested again and put took the roll out of the camera while still outside in the cold and put it in a jar with some rice to absorb any humidity and let it warm up for 12 hrs. The exact same problem happened again, so I reexamined the roll and noticed the problem disappeared at a sharp point near the end of the roll, with a straight line of dots. It then dawned on me that my unspooling method probably was to blame: for some reason I had unspooled the film to remove the backing paper and then inserted it into the reel. The film hat thus touched its own backside. I then repeated the test in the same atmospheric conditions and purposefully subjected the film to a strong temperature shock and spooled it into the reel directly from the spool, avoiding that the film touches itself. It came out flawless. I should note it was from the exact same batch as the roll that had the problem yesterday. tl:dr: don't let the film touch its own backside. Should my future findings contradict this hypothesis I will post on this thread again.

John Wiegerink · Jan 10, 2021

"Very interesting" as Arte Johnson would say. Hard to believe, but I suppose it's possible. I have had only one film that gave me problems and that was the old Shanghai GP3. Still, I keep a close eye out for it, but have been lucky so far. I'm currently using Ilford films, but am in the process of running a couple 120 rolls of Bergger 400, which might be prone to backing paper problems. We'll see I guess. .

Mcsushiburger · Jan 10, 2021

I have also emailed Ilford about this, if someone over there wants to give it some thought as to whether there is any plausibility to it.

John Wiegerink · Jan 10, 2021

Mcsushiburger said:
I have also emailed Ilford about this, if someone over there wants to give it some thought as to whether there is any plausibility to it.

Please don't forget to fill us in as to what Ilford has to say. I'm sure others here are just as curious as I am.

Pieter12 · Jan 10, 2021

I had the same issue with a 120 roll of HP5+ that was left in the camera for a number of months. Upon the recommendation of members of this forum, I checked https://www.ilfordphoto.com/statement-120-roll-film/
I contacted Ilford and they are replacing the roll, not much of a consolation and I'd hate to have this happen again.

Telesar · Jul 22, 2021

Thank you MC for starting this thread. The problems illustrated here look exactly like mine. I've had the problem with Delta 100 and FP4. I'd come to believe it was moisture from cold-hot cycles, including severe handling--my worst roll was one that I had clutched tightly in my warm sweaty hand for about half an hour after removing it from the camera (long story, basically I was trying to shield it from the sun before getting it into my cooler but on my way there got pulled into an unexpectedly long conversation with a stranger).
--I've been storing my film in a freezer and some rolls maybe have been pulled in and out of the freezer multiple times such as when I take out a roll and put it in my bag for an excursion, then don't use it and put it back in the freezer...but I never take any film out of the sealed wrapper until putting it into a camera.
--Your latest finding is especially interesting--suggesting the damage happens in the changing bag due to removing the backing paper before spooling the film onto the reel--I recently started doing that, too. I had thought this problem was caused by an interaction between the film and the backing paper, but maybe not?
--Then again, recently I shot two rolls of film, one from an older batch (exp. 2018) and one from a newer batch, handled them both the same way in the changing bag...the older roll had the speckling problem while the newer roll did not.
I'll be very interested to learn of any further findings from anybody!
At this point I don't trust any 120 b+w film in my freezer and I'd hate to throw it out.
Thanks all,
Kurt

Tom Kershaw · Jul 22, 2021

Telesar said:
I've been storing my film in a freezer and some rolls maybe have been pulled in and out of the freezer multiple times such as when I take out a roll and put it in my bag for an excursion, then don't use it and put it back in the freezer...but I never take any film out of the sealed wrapper until putting it into a camera.

I have taken to only purchasing smaller quantities of black & white film and storing at room temperature until use. After experiencing the ILFORD back paper issues with in-date well stored stock, I've become inclined to stick with Kodak products (120 B&W), so far so good...

Agulliver · Jul 22, 2021

I've been using some Delta 3200 that's been in my freezer for a couple of years, no problems....but two years ago I did have a roll of FP4+ exhibit this problem, albeit to a less severe degree. It had also been frozen and thawed.

Tom Kershaw · Jul 22, 2021

Agulliver said:
I've been using some Delta 3200 that's been in my freezer for a couple of years, no problems....but two years ago I did have a roll of FP4+ exhibit this problem, albeit to a less severe degree. It had also been frozen and thawed.

Perhaps the change in humidity is a greater issue than age as such?

Pieter12 · Jul 22, 2021

My example (post #37) was in the camera for a while but not subject to humidity changes and never refrigerated or frozen. I believe the problem was on the manufacturing side. Ilford promptly replace the film with a few more rolls and I have not experienced issues with any of the other Ilford film I have shot, about 90% HP5+ the rest mostly FP4+. I do not store the film in a freezer or refrigerator, just a dimly-lit closet that stays at maybe 65-68º most of the year. When I transport more than 4 rolls of film, I will put it in a small lunch-box cooler, no ice

MattKing · Jul 22, 2021

The "manufacturing" problem may very well be a susceptibility to problems with humidity or other storage variables.
For that reason, not everyone with film from a particular batch will necessarily see the problem.
That is part of the reason that solving such problems is so difficult.

Telesar · Jul 22, 2021

Matt and TK, I think you are right. To carry it further, I suspect that for awhile, Ilford was using some particular formulation of backing paper and surface treatment that interacted too readily with the film emulsion. Even a tiny amount of moisture might have been enough to facilitate it--even maybe the trace humidity in the air sealed into the foil packet. If the film was loaded in a camera, then the humidity swings inside the camera would have been greater and if the film were left in the camera for awhile the problem more likely would have manifested. The example provided by Pieter shows a sharp vertical (to the film path) gradient in the speckling which could correspond to the film and backing being held against the spool under tension at the point where the film left the spool and was stretched across the focal plane. Some of my images--shot in very cold weather--show the same pattern. So I think the problem is a combination of a batch of film with a preexisting vulnerability and handling that causes the vulnerability to manifest itself. Just my speculation here.

I also believe Ilford has fixed the problem, based on their statements about this issue and the testimony of other users, and my own success with Ilford BW films dated more recently. Still I'm going to be more mindful about how I manage my film storage, and in particular will not shuffle film rolls in and out of the freezer. From now on, anything that comes out of the freezer will not go back in.

Below is another image showing the problem. This roll of Delta 100
--was dated 2018;
--was in a freezer most of the time;
--was definitely taken out of the freezer, carried who knows where in a camera bag, and returned to the freezer at least once and probably multiple times over the past few years;
--was removed from its sealed pouch, loaded into the camera, shot, and processed within the same day
a few days ago;
--it shows the speckling problem.

I suspected this roll would be bad based on its history. I shot it to test whether a prewash would help--maybe whatever the backing paper did to the emulsion could be washed off? I shot all ten images of the same scene, cut the roll in half in the changing bag and developed the two halves separately, one with prewash, one without. Prewash (three minutes with periodic agitation) didn't make any difference. The whole roll was like this. Film travel was horizontal in the camera (Bessa III).

Ilford 120 Backing Paper Issue? (Edit: probably not)

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