Ilford 120 Backing Paper Issue? (Edit: probably not)

Hello everybody,

I have just shot a test roll of Delta 100 to test a new developer and got the unfortunate result you see as as attached. This is a crop of an image that shows the defect. The film is very fresh with an expiration date of June 2020. Here is what I did: The film was stored at room temperature. I put the roll inside my RZ67 and went outside, where the temperature is around 10° Celsius (or 50° Farenheit) and shot the roll in about 15 minutes and went back inside. I loaded the roll into my development tank immediately (hands got a bit sweaty) and developed as usual. Now I wonder if this defect is the result of manufacturing error, or if the film managed to get exposed to excess humidity due to my handling and the rapid changes in temperature I subjected it to. Also, since it was a test roll, I didn't keep the washing temperature at 20° Celsius (68°F) as I usually do, so the washing water was at around 14°C(57°F). Has anyone had similar artifacts or does anyone know if my mishandling of the film is likely to blame? Thanks!

It is horrible when something like this happens; I've seen something like this with Delta 100 but I'm not 100% of cause, may be worth bring to the attention of ILFORD. I now try and control the temperature of all solutions in contact with the film to rule out processing considerations.

Tom Kershaw said:

It is horrible when something like this happens; I've seen something like this with Delta 100 but I'm not 100% of cause, may be worth bring to the attention of ILFORD. I now try and control the temperature of all solutions in contact with the film to rule out processing considerations.

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I'm about to process a second roll with almost the same batch number without the temperature variations. Shot inside, al processing and washing with tested solutions and washing at constant temperature. I will be sure to notify the Ilford Customer Service and present my findings.

Let us know how that second roll comes out!

Andrew O'Neill said:

Let us know how that second roll comes out!

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I will. What is rather unique about these light spots os that they seem to be proportional to exposure. Unexposed bits of film don't have them.

Mcsushiburger said:

Now I wonder if this defect is the result of manufacturing error, or if the film managed to get exposed to excess humidity due to my handling and the rapid changes in temperature I subjected it to.

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Yes, this is almost definitely why you got marks on the film. Its likely condensation resulting from a rapid change in environment.
Washing the film at 57F didn't help either, I'm sure.

From my experience of Ilford films you did not seem to subject it to the kind of temperature variation that is big enough to give you this effect. The development and fixing was done at say 20 C and then the washing at 6C lower. If this kind of a change of temperature when washing is enough to do this then I am surprised

I take it you are sure that the effect can be seen under a loupe and is not the result of a scanning problem? Like Andrew I'd like to see the result of the second roll. I hope it is OK

pentaxuser

pentaxuser said:

From my experience of Ilford films you did not seem to subject it to the kind of temperature variation that is big enough to give you this effect. The development and fixing was done at say 20 C and then the washing at 6C lower. If this kind of a change of temperature when washing is enough to do this then I am surprised

I take it you are sure that the effect can be seen under a loupe and is not the result of a scanning problem? Like Andrew I'd like to see the result of the second roll. I hope it is OK

pentaxuser

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Second roll is in the fixer right now. dark dots are clearly visible on the film with the naked eye, so no scanning issue.

I was getting some strange results with using a citric acid stop bath, so now either use a water bath or acetic acid stop.

Tom

Tom Kershaw said:

I was getting some strange results with using a citric acid stop bath, so now either use a water bath or acetic acid stop.

Tom

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In this case a water wash was used.

The second roll seems unaffected. At least I can't see anything with the naked eye like on the affected roll. I will report my confirmation when the roll is dried and scanned.

So it was either none of the stuff I did and pure chance, or my sweaty hands in the changing bag in combination with the rapid temperature change from cold to warm. I'm almost tempted to try and replicate my first workflow to confirm it is really the problem. Feels bad burning through arguably one of the nicest films ever made........but I kinda need to be able to rely on it.

In case anyone wants to know: The roll where the problem occured hat the number 54CTA1C02/01 and had an expiration date of June 2020. The roll where I did not get the problem was 59DTA1C01/02 with an expiration date ov November 2020. (It has the new packaging with the black strip on the bottom)

paulbarden said:

Yes, this is almost definitely why you got marks on the film. Its likely condensation resulting from a rapid change in environment.
Washing the film at 57F didn't help either, I'm sure.

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Thank you for your assessment. My findings with the second roll not subjected to temperature changes washed in adequately tempered water don't show these defects, so my results seem to confirm your suspicion.

Since the two rolls came from different batches we still do not have a single possible cause for the problem.

First can you see it on the film? Is it a scanning issue? The wash temperature is not an issue. I would be surprised if it was condensation on the film. Looks uniform, no streaks. I would put the film on a light table and make sure it's on the film. Making a contact sheet would be a good idea. If you see this on a contact print I would get in touch with Harman.

Flatbed scanners do weird things.

RZ is a great camera.
Best Regards Mike

mshchem said:

First can you see it on the film? Is it a scanning issue? The wash temperature is not an issue. I would be surprised if it was condensation on the film. Looks uniform, no streaks. I would put the film on a light table and make sure it's on the film. Making a contact sheet would be a good idea. If you see this on a contact print I would get in touch with Harman.

Flatbed scanners do weird things.

RZ is a great camera.
Best Regards Mike

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It is most definitely visible on the film

The artefact looks like long time storage under humid conditions. A issue the industry was aware of and published about many decades ago.
Though your handling of the film seemingly did not involve such.

Mcsushiburger said:

It is most definitely visible on the film

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I would get in touch with Ilford. The uniform pattern is interesting. If it was just condensation from your warm hands, I wouldn't expect it to have such a uniform pattern.

The never ending wonders of analog.

Best Regards Mike

This is absolutely a backing paper issue with Ilford films. It seems to happen more with FP4 and Pan F, but I've seen it on HP5 and XP2. They are aware of it. I'm copying an email response from them in December about this exact issue.

FWD:

I’m unfortunately recognising the spots/mottled effects as being caused by an interaction to the wrapper. Although the wrapper is part accountable – the spots are are also part triggered by external factors (shown below).

We've seen these sorts of spots/mottled effects occasionally arise before - when lacquer levels of the wrappers are fractionally lower than the levels we now consistently apply. (ie we now apply higher levels of lacquer, give better drying to wrappers - and carry out a lot more QC tests).

For the prior occurrences raised to us, the below are the sorts of triggers we also know impact on if spots/mottle to show…..
- we know they are triggered if film was old/ had exceeded our guide user dates.
- we know they are triggered with film that had been stored in heat/high humidity.
- we know it was triggered with film that had long gaps between exposing and processing.
- we know it was triggered with film that had abnormally long exposures.
- We know it can occasionally be triggered if films are not detained in the foil sealed bags – until needing to be used.
- Using certain developers triggered it too. For eg, using pyro staining developers or if customers concoct their own formulation of a developer - seemed to make the film more susceptible.
- We know they can occur if films are not kept in the foil seal bags – until they are ready to be used in a camera.

From the 4 digit code you supplied (3882 and/or 2882) and from the batch number you gave (63CFN1C01/02), we are tracking it down to all its coated/finished batch number and checking all its manufacturing records. I’ll update you as soon as I can - re the batch that shows on cartons (just in case you have more – which are best then to not risk being used. I’ll make sure I replace them – in parcel I mention I’m going to send below). But unfortunately in UK, today is our last day in work, so I won’t be able to email back again until 2nd Jan.

Given the wrapper is part accountable, and as I appreciate it must be so disappointing and frustrating to lose images, I’m definitely going to send you some goodwill/replacement films to cover the processed ones and any unexposed off those batches too. (Again however, I appreciate replacing your films doesn’t bring back your lost images/erase your disappointment.

Thanks that you’ve been so patient and understanding re the error. Aside our huge apologies, I hope you can be reassured that we do have activities in hand now (as mentioned above) – to try and ensure these sorts of spots are prevented. I’ll look forward to hearing back from you – re your address.

Good to see Ilford have accepted responsibility for the problems.

Mike

I've had two issues with fresh well stored ILFORD film that I'm still not 100% sure about even though I've been in communication with them on several occasions.

1. filaments on the edge of the film that can 'fall down' into the image area. - I've processed a lot of Kodak C-41 (Jobo) recently without any issue. - B&W -> hand tanks and Jobo, Mamiya and Bronica cameras no nothing specific here.

2. wavy marks on the film base. I think these exist on the substrate before coating and thankfully do not print or show in scans.

Tom

Tom Kershaw said:

I've had two issues with fresh well stored ILFORD film that I'm still not 100% sure about even though I've been in communication with them on several occasions.

1. filaments on the edge of the film that can 'fall down' into the image area. - I've processed a lot of Kodak C-41 (Jobo) recently without any issue. - B&W -> hand tanks and Jobo, Mamiya and Bronica cameras no nothing specific here.

2. wavy marks on the film base. I think these exist on the substrate before coating and thankfully do not print or show in scans.

Tom

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The first I've seen on several different brands of films - it seems to be some sort of slight physical damage from the reels that breaks down the gelatin layers and they then float around until they stick during drying. A sort of very slight 'edge frilling'. I experienced it with Jobo 2500 reels and Fuji NPZ in particular - if you spotted it and caught them while it was still wet it was fine.

Regarding the second, I've seen all sorts of odd wavy markings, but in many cases I've found them to be manifestations of drying marks (or worse still, interlayer drying marks). Careful attention to the relationship between ambient humidity and heating in drying cabinet (don't dry your films too fast!) seems to cure most of this.

Lachlan Young said:

The first I've seen on several different brands of films - it seems to be some sort of slight physical damage from the reels that breaks down the gelatin layers and they then float around until they stick during drying. A sort of very slight 'edge frilling'. I experienced it with Jobo 2500 reels and Fuji NPZ in particular - if you spotted it and caught them while it was still wet it was fine.

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I've made a habit now of checking every film. Oddly as mentioned above I had this filament / edge frilling with a stainless steel reel (e.g Hewes) / tank combination which as you know holds the film from the short edge end and doesn't really attach in anyway to the top and bottom of the long edge.

Tom Kershaw said:

I've made a habit now of checking every film. Oddly as mentioned above I had this filament / edge frilling with a stainless steel reel (e.g Hewes) / tank combination which as you know holds the film from the short edge end and doesn't really attach in anyway to the top and bottom of the long edge.

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I wonder if it's possibly some sort of microscopic variance in the film width which causes tiny abrasions at some stage in manufacture or exposure, then exposure to the process chemistry loosens it from the base?