Ilfochrome substitute

[lightwisps]

I am getting desperate for a replacement for Ilfochrome. It needs to be a positive to positive method. Heard of one Fuji was making but seems like it is a goner too. Any ideas? Thanks, Don

 

[cliveh]

If you are talking transparency, what about duratrans?

 

[lightwisps]

Hmmmm, that is an interesting thought.

 

[richard ide]

Duratrans is negative to positive. I don't think there are any other options unfortunately. Emulsion stripping a transparency could be investigated but even if it worked there is size restriction. The only analogue way would be to adapt a proofing system output. Although I have done camera separations; today it would be a hybrid process. It would also give you a vast choice of base papers. Permanence would probably be lacking. The other solution would be multicolor carbro or gumprints.

 

[DREW WILEY]

There is no substitute. I'm gradually homing in on making Portra internegs from chromes for printing onto Fuji Supergloss, which has a similar look. But the masking regimen is different and there are certain other speedbumps I'm trying to work out. The only short term solution is to have
them scanned and then something like a Lightjet or Lambda onto Supergloss. If you want a challenge you can also work in one of the assembly
processes like dye transfer or carbon, but the learning curve will be in years, not months. I'm printing directly from color negs for awhile, so
probably won't get back to the interneg project till next winter.

 

[Roger Cole]

RA4 paper can be reversal processed, and it apparently works for some images, but it is no substitute for Ilfochrome. PE has posted about this - do a search.

The only all analog way that is likely to be satisfactory is via internegs. Yes, the traditional interneg film has been discontinued, but Portra apparently works pretty well for some folks.

This is one of those cases where hybrid is the most satisfactory work flow, not because it's inherently better than previous methods but because cancellation of materials pretty much force one to it.

 

[Poisson Du Jour]

Nope. No real analogue substitutes.
But alternative (aka skilled-based a-to-d hybridised scan-to-print workflow with high-end printing) have got a big leg up on the staid, inflexible nature of Ilfochrome (to say nothing of dealing with the horrors of the raw media itself) — or I certainly would not be using it! Might be something to look at if you're really desperate. Believe me, I was a sourpuss once about the alternative methods but once you re-skill there is no limit to the quality you can achieve. Again, if that quality was not achievable, I would not be spending fortunes on prints, framing and exhibition (and viewers do know what they are looking at, that's never held back from them).

 

[Stephen Frizza]

I am about to run out of the last of my Ilfochrome paper and chemical supplies. I have been seeking a substitute and this is what I will say. The closest analog substitute you will find is Ilford Ilfoflex. Having been made by Ilford as an RA-4 material on the same base as Ilfochrome and using dyes that match, with careful tweaking you will be extremely happy with the results. Process is develop in B&W developer, wash, reversal exposure, ra-4 develop, blix, wash. The whole process once controlled is actually better than ilfochrome in some aspects, Contrast is far easier to control.

 

[Oxleyroad]

Stephen, where do you get your Ilfoflex from, US, Europe?

 

[DREW WILEY]

By the same logic you should be able to experiment with reversal processing of Fujiflex. But the dyes in Ilfoflex cannot be same same as in
Ilfochrome, because azo dyes in that instance require chromolytic removal, and are not related to the chromogenic system of RA4. It would
also be useful for someone to investigate chemical reversal vs light, so the whole process could be done uninterrupted in drums.

 

[Stephen Frizza]

But the dyes in Ilfoflex cannot be same same as in
Ilfochrome, because azo dyes in that instance require chromolytic removal, and are not related to the chromogenic system of RA4.

correct sorry if I didnt make it clear. It was ilfords intention with ilfoflex to make an Ra-4 material which would match ilfochrome. The dyes are not the same.
Ilfords goals when designing ilfoflex was to design an ra-4 material which when exhibiting both ilfochrome and ilfoflex next to one another they would compliment and not visually clash. That's what I was trying to imply, my apologies for not making that clearer.

 

[Roger Cole]

So where do you get Ilfoflex, and can you give more detail on the process? This could be exciting.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Roger ... there was some mini-lab-etc supply outfit in Canada liquidating Fujiflex cut-sheet products at low prices. I don't know if they still have
inventory. CA emulsion doesn't spoil fast, and that might be a good way to experiment with reversal. When I get to the end of my big roll of the current version I might give it a whirl just for the hell of it. ... but I'm already halfway down the interneg path (no time, however, due to currently printing right from negs, sometimes masked - and they sure can look like Cibas!).

 

[Oxleyroad]

So where do you get Ilfoflex, and can you give more detail on the process? This could be exciting.

Roger I sent a note to Ilford earlier this week. B&H have the paper listed as discontinued, other well know US suppliers advised me they don't stock this paper and in Australia the distributor told me the demand is low so they don't bring it in. I'll post the response from Ilford (in Switzerland) when it comes.

 

[polyglot]

Was Ilfoflex designed to be used in reversal like this? Is it notably better (in terms of colour accuracy) than other RA4 reversal options? I've seen RA4 reversals on FCA and they don't seem very good at all, lots of crossover.

As for the reversal step, wouldn't E6 reversal-bath work?

 

[Roger Cole]

Roger I sent a note to Ilford earlier this week. B&H have the paper listed as discontinued, other well know US suppliers advised me they don't stock this paper and in Australia the distributor told me the demand is low so they don't bring it in. I'll post the response from Ilford (in Switzerland) when it comes.

And even the "discontinued" listing at B&H is only for gigantic rolls. Sigh.

Just when I thought someone had told us about a magic bullet....back to scanning. I'm pretty sure I don't want to learn to make decent internegatives right now. Heck, in fact I'm pretty sure I don't want to go back to printing color right now because I'm just too damned busy. Once I get the darkroom plumbed and have running water down there so I don't face so much set up and clean up time, maybe then I'll go back to printing RA4 anyway.

 

[JoJo]

I did a lot of RA-4 reversal experiments 3 years ago. Results were not too bad, but far away from professional results. Control of contrast (via pre-exposure) and color correction was very difficult and took much time and material.
The best way is using internegatives. First I used IT-N film from Fuji. Results were absolutely great, but the film is no longer produced.
For myself, I found a good substitute for obsolete internegative film: ECN-2 cinefilm. This film is low contrast and matches very good to the contrast of slides. I use an automatic Noritsu slide duplicator I got from Ebay. The machine can be loaded with bulk rolls of 100ft or more. ECN-2 tungsten film (Eterna 250T or Vision 3 200T) is available very cheap as short end. I process it in self mixed ECN-2 developer.

Joachim

 

[Stephen Frizza]

Ok my recommendation for anyone whos wanting to buy it without owning a lab here may be your best option http://www.diversifiedimaging.net/?cat=944
I must say one thing Ilford have never been good with is promoting and making their products easy for anyone to obtain.

Secondly If you try and reverse FujiFlex....have fun because there is a whole world of issues you will face, colour cross overs, contrast etc... it just doesn't perform like the Ilfoflex.

also depending on where in the world you are try contacting ilford directly nd asking them where they suggest? http://www.ilford.com/en/products/commercial-wide-format/ilfocolor/ilfoflex/

 

[AgX]

That company above is located in the USA.

 

[Stephen Frizza]

That company above is located in the USA.

I notice you are in germany I do not know the german seller of Ilfoflex however this german lab does use ilfoflex and will be able to tell you where to buy it. otherwise ask if u can buy it from them?

http://www.cromeart.com/print-%28eng%29.html

Sorry I cant be more helpful to those in Germany.


There are a few labs around the world I know of who are using Ilfoflex.

 

[AgX]

The source for Europe would be Le Bon Image in Germany.

 

[StoneNYC]

I did a lot of RA-4 reversal experiments 3 years ago. Results were not too bad, but far away from professional results. Control of contrast (via pre-exposure) and color correction was very difficult and took much time and material.
The best way is using internegatives. First I used IT-N film from Fuji. Results were absolutely great, but the film is no longer produced.
For myself, I found a good substitute for obsolete internegative film: ECN-2 cinefilm. This film is low contrast and matches very good to the contrast of slides. I use an automatic Noritsu slide duplicator I got from Ebay. The machine can be loaded with bulk rolls of 100ft or more. ECN-2 tungsten film (Eterna 250T or Vision 3 200T) is available very cheap as short end. I process it in self mixed ECN-2 developer.

Joachim

What about Vision3 500T ? That's what I have in my fridge, also, how do you get ECN-2 developer? Does it chemically remove the remjet? Where do you get it?


~Stone | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[AgX]

I assume by self-mixing that developer Joachim meant made from scratch, not just mixing ready-made parts.

 

[MattKing]

I must say one thing Ilford have never been good with is promoting and making their products easy for anyone to obtain.

Most who are interested in this thread will know this, but for those who don't.....

There are two Ilfords now.

Ilford/Harmann are the ones who make black and white products. They are good at promoting and making their products easy for anyone to obtain.

Ilford Imaging Switzerland GmbH are the other Ilford. They were the manufacturers of Ilfochrome (Cibachrome, when they were known as Ilford/Ciba) and may still be the manufacturers of Ilfoflex and other Ilfocolor products.

The Swiss Ilford are the ones you will find when you go to "Ilford.com".

 

[StoneNYC]

Most who are interested in this thread will know this, but for those who don't.....

There are two Ilfords now.

Ilford/Harmann are the ones who make black and white products. They are good at promoting and making their products easy for anyone to obtain.

Ilford Imaging Switzerland GmbH are the other Ilford. They were the manufacturers of Ilfochrome (Cibachrome, when they were known as Ilford/Ciba) and may still be the manufacturers of Ilfoflex and other Ilfocolor products.

The Swiss Ilford are the ones you will find when you go to "Ilford.com".

I didn't know this at all... Interesting.

So the color paper made by "Ilford" for printing with say an ink jet printer, is that the ciba Ilford?

Also is that why Ilfochrome died? Because the company split and Swiss decided they didn't want to make it?

Can't someone buy the patents and produce it?

I guess I'm just confused why only one printing even existed and then it ended even though there seems to have been no competition ...

Remember guys, I'm "young" and don't really know the whole history.


~Stone | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk