If you were to teach a 4x5 workshop, what would you cover?

narsuitus · Jan 17, 2017

jnanian said:
simple movements like tilting to compensate for converging / diverging lines
( getting a tall building in the frame )

I am having difficulty visualizing how to use tilting to get a tall building in the frame without converging lines.

Do I use front tilt or rear tilt or both?

tedr1 · Jan 17, 2017

Movements! We don't need no stinking movements!

How to confuse beginners REALLY QUICKLY............movements

Keep it simple and end the class with prints they can take away, something showing the two major properties of large format, shallow DOF and good detail. An available light head portrait outdoors is a suitable subject (no movements).

Or if there isn't time to make prints just make the negative and next time in the printing workshop make the prints

removed account4 · Jan 17, 2017

narsuitus said:
I am having difficulty visualizing how to use tilting to get a tall building in the frame without converging lines.

Do I use front tilt or rear tilt or both?

yep, both

tilt the tripod so the camera points-up enough for the building, tree, telephone pole, tall person &c to be in-frame ... then "level" out the front + back standards ..

its as simple as using front rise or back fall ... and not confusing at all ...

front and back just have to be parallel and its ez to do, and show even with
a box with a cheap lens and frame with waxed paper in it ( camera obscura ) what
converging lines &c do ... after all a bellows/view camera is just a type of camera obscura you put film in..

using a speeder or box camera would eliminate the need of anything film holder + exposure button ..

Luckless · Jan 17, 2017

Movements in a large format camera all go back to positioning two distinct planes around within a 3D volume of space relative to each other. Any number of motions can be combined to arrive at the same end result.

Next time you setup your camera, picture a large box that is fixed to the ground and big enough to cover the entire camera, and then think of where the front and back standards are positioned relative to that box. The image formed on the ground glass/film doesn't care whether you raised/lowered the standards while the base of the camera was level, or if you angle the base of the camera and then tilt the standards - The end result is that the plane of the standards share an identical geometry relative to each other and the subject within that 'box' you picture around the entire setup.

Vaughn · Jan 17, 2017

jnanian said:
yep, both

tilt the tripod so the camera points-up enough for the building, tree, telephone pole tall person &c to be in-frame
then "level" out the front + back standards ..

Took me forever to realize that just keeping the camera level and using front rise is the exact same thing as tilting the camera upwards and 'leveling' the standards. But it is a way to get front rise if your camera does not have it (as long as one has front and back tilt), or to increase the amount of front rise one does have.

In either case, the lens will have to have enough coverage to use rise.

narsuitus: if the film plane (back of the camera) is parallel to the subject plane (side of the building), then you will not have converging lines.

Dan Fromm · Jan 17, 2017

jnanian said:
yep, both

tilt the tripod so the camera points-up enough for the building, tree, telephone pole, tall person &c to be in-frame ... then "level" out the front + back standards ..

its as simple as using front rise or back fall ... and not confusing at all ...

front and back just have to be parallel and its ez to do, and show even with
a box with a cheap lens and frame with waxed paper in it ( camera obscura ) what
converging lines &c do ... after all a bellows/view camera is just a type of camera obscura you put film in..

using a speeder or box camera would eliminate the need of anything film holder + exposure button ..

Sounds like indirect rise to me.

Mainecoonmaniac · Jan 17, 2017

How to compensate exposure for bellows extension.

Vaughn · Jan 17, 2017

I have taught the use of 4x5s quite a lot during the 24 years I was with the university. My instruction was geared toward people who would be taking the cameras out and using them for assignments, then what to do once they came back to the darkroom.

What and how you will teach will depend on the needs and experience level of the students. For two days, I would not consider enlarging as a practical subject of the class...unless it was along the lines of one straight, quick-and-easy 11x14 print from one negative as a demo.

Better yet, buy a pack of this: http://www.freestylephoto.biz/9012-Blueprint-Printables-Design-andamp-Print-Pre-Coated-Cyanotype

...and have everyone make a couple cyanotypes. LF is the cats meow for alt processes!

FIRST DAY
Intro to camera:
Set up cameras in teams of two
Explore cameras...lens operation, movement controls, focus, film holder use
Loading holders
Image control:
Take cameras out (or studio) and practise composing images w/o film.
Exposure controls:
Have everyone expose two sheets
Development of film
-----End of day one
DAY TWO
Examine dry film
Retake image if needed, two new images if not.
Develop film
Make cyanotypes

Toffle · Jan 17, 2017

You might want to touch on the panoply of errors which threaten virtually every step of the LF process in ways that smaller format shooters can scarcely imagine. The opportunity for error seems to grow exponentially with the size (and price) of film you are using. If you're lucky (and careful) you won't make some of those very errors in your own workshop. There will be plenty of opportunities for them to bungle things up; it wouldn't hurt to reassure them that a few ruined sheets of film does not mean that they are unsuited to LF photography. Every once in awhile, we all slip up and totally blow a shot. Learn to laugh at yourself. This is supposed to be fun.

Towards that end, I would recommend that your students learn to follow a checklist of steps in the LF shooting process. I used a checklist pretty religiously for my first couple of years shooting LF, and caught myself from some really stupid mistakes.

Cheers,
Tom

brofkand · Jan 17, 2017

narsuitus said:
Examples of 4x5 image quality vs. 35mm image quality

This is excellent - and I have an example I can print that will definitely prove it! Thanks for the idea.

I appreciate everyone's input - I am meeting with the director this afternoon to go over the cameras and make sure they're in good shape and have everything needed - from there it will be on to designing the course and the input I've received on APUG will be invaluable in that! Thanks a ton. Especially appreciated hearing from folks who've taught a class like this before.

Toffle · Jan 17, 2017

A couple of specifics:

Always start at zero. Level your camera, set tilts, shifts, swings, whatever to zero. It feels really dumb to struggle with a shot because you've left your camera in the wrong configuration.

Before you take your shot, lock everything down. It's amazing how easily a standard can move when you jam a holder into place.

After taking your exposure, do a quick re-think of your process before tearing down your setup and moving on. It's a lot easier to fix an error and re-shoot before you've packed everything away in the trunk of your car.

Tom

removed account4 · Jan 17, 2017

Dan Fromm said:
Sounds like indirect rise to me.

maybe, not sure what it can be called but it works, and in reverse too,
if photographing the wall of a quarry when "fall" is not available, except to fall into the 300 foot hole infront of you ...

winger · Jan 17, 2017

I've managed to learn most of what I need for LF on my own (or on APUG/LFPF), but I'd really appreciate a good class on movements - not a lecture, but using them in different situations. I simply cannot read about it and then do it (and really don't want to take a book out to the woods). I don't know if beginners would need it, but at least an intro to it might help.

I don't know if you can fit in all the things that can go wrong in just a two day class, either. Murphy's Law might need a whole week.

brofkand · Jan 17, 2017

winger said:
I've managed to learn most of what I need for LF on my own (or on APUG/LFPF), but I'd really appreciate a good class on movements - not a lecture, but using them in different situations. I simply cannot read about it and then do it (and really don't want to take a book out to the woods). I don't know if beginners would need it, but at least an intro to it might help.

I don't know if you can fit in all the things that can go wrong in just a two day class, either. Murphy's Law might need a whole week.

Definitely can't teach people to master the view camera in a weekend. But we can hit the high spots and get people competent with them I feel.

Alan Gales · Jan 17, 2017

Dan Fromm said:
Sounds like indirect rise to me.

Kind of like indirect fall?
I mentioned on LFPF that the Wista metal cameras have no front fall but generous rise. Someone mentioned dropping the bed to get fall.

Dan Fromm · Jan 17, 2017

Alan, kind of. Incline the camera's bed, use tilt to make both standards vertical and Bob's your uncle. Draw a sketch ...

My little Graphics have beds that drop and front standards with rear tilt and rise. Level camera, drop bed, make standard (on the outer bed, of course) vertical and there you are. Except that the things have limited front rise and the farther out the front standard is on the rail the lower the neutral position is. Can't count on getting the front fall you want. Nice idea, practical with a narrow range of focal lengths and focused distances. Sometimes you just can't win.

Cheers,

Dan

Alan Gales · Jan 17, 2017

Dan Fromm said:
Alan, kind of. Incline the camera's bed, use tilt to make both standards vertical and Bob's your uncle. Draw a sketch ...

My little Graphics have beds that drop and front standards with rear tilt and rise. Level camera, drop bed, make standard (on the outer bed, of course) vertical and there you are. Except that the things have limited front rise and the farther out the front standard is on the rail the lower the neutral position is. Can't count on getting the front fall you want. Nice idea, practical with a narrow range of focal lengths and focused distances. Sometimes you just can't win.

Cheers,

Dan

I was just joking with you, Dan. Bob explained it to me but thanks. I get it now.

Yeah, I think Bob would make an excellent uncle.

wiltw · Jan 17, 2017

jnanian said:
yep, both

tilt the tripod so the camera points-up enough for the building, tree, telephone pole, tall person &c to be in-frame ... then "level" out the front + back standards ..

its as simple as using front rise or back fall ... and not confusing at all ...

front and back just have to be parallel and its ez to do, and show even with
a box with a cheap lens and frame with waxed paper in it ( camera obscura ) what
converging lines &c do ... after all a bellows/view camera is just a type of camera obscura you put film in..

using a speeder or box camera would eliminate the need of anything film holder + exposure button ..

Alan Gales said:
Kind of like indirect fall?
I mentioned on LFPF that the Wista metal cameras have no front fall but generous rise. Someone mentioned dropping the bed to get fall.

No difference in end result

Alan Gales · Jan 17, 2017

wiltw said:
No difference in end result

Thanks. I was thinking that on the Wista if you drop your bed then you have to adjust your tripod head to match which would be another step. No biggie for landscape photography but a pain if you just wanted a little front fall for a portrait.

Bob mentioned that you can start out with some front rise on the Wista. Then you would have the choice of rise or fall when shooting a portrait.

removed account4 · Jan 17, 2017

wiltw said:
No difference in end result

nice diagram !

i implied that there was any difference i just suggested it might be fun to teach/show.
... definately more fun than turning a knob, which, even though it does the same thing, is kind of boring ...

dpurdy · Jan 17, 2017

I agree with Toffle that a beginner should be taught to set the camera up in Zero position and level.
If your base is aiming up or down, when you focus you will change the view either up or down.

M Carter · Jan 17, 2017

The biggies for me were:

Exposure comp. with bellows extension - I had no idea for ages why I was getting wonky exposures;
Use of a FOCUSING LIGHT IN THE STUDIO!!!! That's just epic for still life and portraits. I used a 750w open-faced to focus, and then fired up the speedos.
Using a loupe to check focus - keeping even a cheap plastic loupe in your kit.
The Schiempflug (sp?) relationship is one of the easiest ways to visualize focus.
Using snap filter holders with wratten filters on the rear lens element.

Sirius Glass · Jan 17, 2017

Why press cameras are a good way to go. Hand held 4"x5" photography and can be used as a view camera with some movements.

removed account4 · Jan 17, 2017

Sirius Glass said:
Why press cameras are a good way to go. Hand held 4"x5" photography and can be used as a view camera with some movements.

i agree, press cameras take all the nonsense out of using a LF camera and make it more like
MF or 35mm or smaller cameras ( point, focus, shoot )

but they do not have the same movements as a monorail/view camera, i'd love to be wrong though,
what press cameras allow for the same movements as a view camera ?
full ( top /bottom + side to side ) tilt and swing / rise fall of both frnt and rear standards ...

Sirius Glass · Jan 17, 2017

I posted some of the movement. Not all and those it has are limited, but very useful. It depends on the press camera and the particular model.

If you were to teach a 4x5 workshop, what would you cover?

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