ozmoose, part of the appeal for me in this project is that it is new, and not a 20 year contraption with unknown repair potential. I have been lucky in repairing a fair amount of old darkroom gear, but it is always a crapshoot. I don't want to dedicate space to a Jobo especially since I won't use it for printing. Nice score on your Duolabs. $300-500, if they can do it would be a winner for me.
If you could automate your film processing, would you?
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Great feedback, I've addressed some of your points here:
It's entirely possible that we have different definitions of what constitutes a "decent profit." I'm a college student with a 9-5 job, so 100% of profits on any sales that may happen here basically translate into the ability to buy film, paper, chemistry, and maybe a lens or another toy. This project is first and foremost for fun because I enjoy creating things. If I walk away having spent a 200 hours on the project and pocketing $2,000, that doesn't translate to "$10/hr" to me. More like "I did a fun project and happened to make $2000 on it."
I'm not looking to start a company here, just do a production run on a unit that makes life easier for those of us who do still process film. I firmly believe there are enough people who are processing their own film (or want to try) to create a niche market for a product like this.
Appreciate your thoughts.
It's entirely possible that we have different definitions of what constitutes a "decent profit." I'm a college student with a 9-5 job, so 100% of profits on any sales that may happen here basically translate into the ability to buy film, paper, chemistry, and maybe a lens or another toy. This project is first and foremost for fun because I enjoy creating things. If I walk away having spent a 200 hours on the project and pocketing $2,000, that doesn't translate to "$10/hr" to me. More like "I did a fun project and happened to make $2000 on it."
Well, if the 5 odd people who replied to this topic saying they would purchase such a unit at a <$500 price point are any indicator, then the market is big enough to be worth my time
I'm not looking to start a company here, just do a production run on a unit that makes life easier for those of us who do still process film. I firmly believe there are enough people who are processing their own film (or want to try) to create a niche market for a product like this.No apology needed - I need honest feedback, not pats on the back
Appreciate your thoughts.Our $300 target price seems to be giving a lot of people "reverse sticker shock." Despite the skepticism, the closer we get to validating all of the components we've sourced to ensure that they work, the more confident I am that we probably won't be too far off from this price point. I suspect the magic sauce here that's making this possible is nothing more than my own standards for how much profit I need in order to justify the project to myself. Certainly wanting to make some money is a factor, but it's far from my top priority. As I stated before, if I go through all the effort to design, prototype, and build a machine that does everything I want it to, and not one soul buys it... then I'll go to sleep with a smile on my face because now I have a machine that takes some of the grind out of my own photography hobby and frees up time for shooting and printing. If 5 people buy it, I'll go to sleep with the same smile on my face immediately after placing an order for some Ilford MG FB, 4x5 FP4+, and Fixer
MattKing
Moderator
I don't think your price estimate is likely to be off because of profit requirements. If it is off, it will because of errors with respect to the additional and ancillary costs you are likely to encounter.
If you make 100 of them, and 5 end up having to be returned due to defects, will that and all the additional shipping and other costs be enough to turn profit and loss.
If you make 100 of them, and 5 end up having to be returned due to defects, will that and all the additional shipping and other costs be enough to turn profit and loss.
Don't bother, OP seems to have selective hearing. Based on what he has just said, no purpose for this thread anyway.
Seen this all before, just watch him succeed or fail.
Seen this all before, just watch him succeed or fail.
While I think it’s ambitious, if you can keep the cost at $500, or so, I’d be interested, assuming it does everything you promise it will. I have a Jobo ATL-2 ( currently out of commission), which spoiled me regarding automatic processing. Best of luck...
I use trays for film processing. The "repair potential" is astonishingly low with this technology.
MattKing
Moderator
Do you use trays to process colour film?
It seems to me that us people who shoot colour film are the most likely customers.
I process C41 roll film at the recommended temperature. While open trays are wonderfully simple, they aren't going to work for me.
WOW! All the negative vibes here!
If the kid wants to produce a self-contained film development system, and
put it out at a $300 pricepoint, why not encourage his efforts?
I, for one, would never think of spending $2,000 for a basic JOBO CPE unit
to help me enjoy what is simply a hobby, a passtime.
If most of those who responded negatively are professionals, depending upon
high-volume, steel-clad quality production, then I doubt that this system is intended for you.
Others, amateurs who pride themselves on their multiple Rolleis, Hasselblads and Leicas,
can probably afford to consider any toy costing less than a few thousand, to be beneath their
interest. So, if this suggested project is so worthy of your contempt, please just pass on to the next thread;
don't be shredding the OP's idea.
JEEZ!
If the kid wants to produce a self-contained film development system, and
put it out at a $300 pricepoint, why not encourage his efforts?
I, for one, would never think of spending $2,000 for a basic JOBO CPE unit
to help me enjoy what is simply a hobby, a passtime.
If most of those who responded negatively are professionals, depending upon
high-volume, steel-clad quality production, then I doubt that this system is intended for you.
Others, amateurs who pride themselves on their multiple Rolleis, Hasselblads and Leicas,
can probably afford to consider any toy costing less than a few thousand, to be beneath their
interest. So, if this suggested project is so worthy of your contempt, please just pass on to the next thread;
don't be shredding the OP's idea.
JEEZ!
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But the TRUTH is allmight! Number don't lie. Nice, cold, numbers. Yes, I will go look for the numbers in my hobby. Numbers.
Go for it kid! Don't let the technicals get you down.
I bought not one but two Jobos through APUG Classified for between $100US and $130US, so why would one want to pay $300US for an unproven and as of now non-existent product?
Not sure, but guessing, the JOBO units ( of what type?) that you bought were not new?
Maybe they'll build it mostly with a 3D printer! Imagine that, a printer that builds a film developer? LOL.
Seriously, they ought to be encouraged. I am also extremely skeptical, but never say never. But what are the specs? Everyone is likely assuming something very different from one another. Will it be a single roll processor or a multi-roll unit? Will it have one fixed tank or interchangable tanks? If it has tanks, will they be based on existing ones or proprietary? Will termp control be analog or digital? Will temp remain constant throughout the process? If its automatic, it will need a pump and electrical. Will it be self-contained or require a water and drain hook up? Will there be variable control over processing times and agitation? Will those be programmable? How many chemical steps will it support? Will it be self-cleaning? And a dozen more questions....
Maybe they can build something for $300, but my bet say that f they did, it would be something with very limited capability, and that wold risk market failure.
I don't buy that something decent in the $1500 is too much. CPP2s sell well used, and people think nothing of plunking down $1500-3500 for a new DSLR body. It all depends what your benchmark is as that's how folks will evaluate price to value when deciding whether some inexpensive is a cheap piece of junk or a bargain.
MFL
Seriously, they ought to be encouraged. I am also extremely skeptical, but never say never. But what are the specs? Everyone is likely assuming something very different from one another. Will it be a single roll processor or a multi-roll unit? Will it have one fixed tank or interchangable tanks? If it has tanks, will they be based on existing ones or proprietary? Will termp control be analog or digital? Will temp remain constant throughout the process? If its automatic, it will need a pump and electrical. Will it be self-contained or require a water and drain hook up? Will there be variable control over processing times and agitation? Will those be programmable? How many chemical steps will it support? Will it be self-cleaning? And a dozen more questions....
Maybe they can build something for $300, but my bet say that f they did, it would be something with very limited capability, and that wold risk market failure.
I don't buy that something decent in the $1500 is too much. CPP2s sell well used, and people think nothing of plunking down $1500-3500 for a new DSLR body. It all depends what your benchmark is as that's how folks will evaluate price to value when deciding whether some inexpensive is a cheap piece of junk or a bargain.
MFL
I don't think anybody has said it can't be done?
Not sure, but guessing, the JOBO units ( of what type?) that you bought were not new?
Exactly. There is still a large market of used Jobo machines in good working condition so that is a reason that a new machine at $300 will be still hard to sell.
Interesting; I've never seen a JOBO unit advertised at less than $350, and even at that, shipping was near $300.
Your luck has, apparently, been much better.
Fantastic questions! I'll do my best to answer here:
Single roll or multi roll? As many as you can fit in a tube designed to hold up to 1 sheet of 8x10 at a time (4" inner diameter)
One fixed tank or interchangable? Current design is using a proprietary tank which is removable. It would be a simple matter to buy more than one. But no, it won't be compatible with existing Jobo/Paterson/other tanks.
Temp control analog or digital? Digital; the "brain" of this unit is a Raspberry Pi.
Will temp remain constant throughout the process? Yes, via a tempered water jacket. The water jacket has a pump to circulate the water and maintain homogenous temperature throughout and a heating element to keep the temp at set levels.
Will it be self contained? Yes, water jacket is simply poured in as a first step at setup. No hookups required.
Variable control over processing times and agitation? Yes, each step has individually controllable time and agitation. These are programmable into presets that are loaded via a microSD card.
How many chemical steps will it support? Up to 8.
Will it be self cleaning? The current idea is to have the water jacket drain by being flushed through the entire system when you are finished with a developing session.
Keep the questions coming!
It's helpful to tell folks the truth. It's not helpful to tell them what they'd LIKE to hear if we think it's not true. That would seem to be basic respect for others.
I would certainly want someone to tell me if I had a large piece of meat stuck in my front teeth rather than make me feel "good" by keeping that from me.
I would be interested. There’s not much creativity for me in film processing. The fun for me is in the exposure and printing steps. Automating the development would be great if I there was an easy way.
One way to automate would be to send the film out for processing, then voilà the slides come back mounted and negative film is printed!
Fish tank heater should do the job and a small circulating pump to move the water past the heater.
Doesn't an immersion circulator do that - only better with more precise temp control and faster, more uniform heating?
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00UKPBXM...t=&hvlocphy=9009723&hvtargid=pla-315823559941
It is possible for B&W film, but as far as I have experienced when I tried to go down this route around 40 years ago, no fish tank heater is hot enough for colour processing.
Mick.
Hi BHuij, there are some out there probably at a MUCH higher price point.
like the Osiris F1. https://petapixel.com/2016/06/15/osiris-f1-affordable-automatic-film-processor/
Or the Filmomat. https://petapixel.com/2015/12/07/this-guy-built-his-own-automatic-film-processor-the-filmomat/
If you can bring the price point down I believe it is very very viable.
like the Osiris F1. https://petapixel.com/2016/06/15/osiris-f1-affordable-automatic-film-processor/
Or the Filmomat. https://petapixel.com/2015/12/07/this-guy-built-his-own-automatic-film-processor-the-filmomat/
If you can bring the price point down I believe it is very very viable.
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