if "format" wars between Japan and the US in the late 40's had had ended differently

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David Lyga

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There was a war between Japan and the US (or perhaps, more appropriately, Eastman Kodak) in the late forties and, unfortunately, Kodak won. This was a 'format war' with Japan taking the side that the 35mm perspective should be less than 1:1.5. In fact, an early Nikon RF was actually 24mm X 32mm, formatwise.

Kodak wanted the wider format for its emerging slide projection market. We had the superior fire power and what we said became reality. I think that better peace would have been achieved if Japan had won that one. Why?

Let's face it: the overwhelming number of published pictures we see are presented in a less aggressive perspective. And, as a bonus, if the 32mm width had become 'law', the so-called marginal lenses would have almost all been good. The real problem with 'bad' 35mm lenses is their performance in the far corners of the frame. By lessening this need to 'reach' to the 36mm width, the lens's 'sweet spot' would have been better utilized.

Of course, the half frame (24mm x 18mm) is also highly useful and, as a bonus, economical in this era of high film prices. Allowing the full frame potential (24mm x 36mm) but also retaining the half frame ability (through double stroke advancing on every camera!!!) would have been too much fantasy to hope for. (It would have slowed down early sports photographers too much, you say?) But it would have presented possibilities that could have changed much frustration in 35mm photography, (as well as, possibly, creating new ones for some). The present perspective I find too extreme.

Going forward, why not revamp (in retrospect) the whole mess by wishing for a manufacturing dichotomy between movie film and still film to have emerged. Anyone out there realize just how much wasted film those large sprocket holes use up? With 'still' you do not need such force against tearing as you do with movie projection.) Is it really unproductive wishful thinking to have hoped for a film that would run through 35mm cameras yielding a large 32mm X 40mm format, and, in the process, challenging medium format in the 'resolution game'? (NOTA BENE: I say 32mm because you need a bit of film to 'ride the rails' so the film stays flat in the film aperture.) That would, indeed, have been a large image to think about. And using a 'mere' 35mm film to boot. The film advancing could have been made precise by employing a single sprocket hole BETWEEN frames (like the Pathe folks with their 9.5mm movie film). In this way the 'small' medium format (4.5cm x 6cm) might not really have had reason to exist. - David Lyga
 
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Ian Grant

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I don't think it had anything what so evever to do with Eastman Kodak.

It was the Germans who'd pioneered 35mm cameras in the 1920's and 30's and Eastman Kodak had no part in that, after WWII Germany was still the major player and dominated the market until the Japanese really began penetrationg the market place in the late 1950's and early 1960's.

Ian
 
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David Lyga

David Lyga

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I recall reading that it really was EK but am prepared to bow to the truth. I cannot remember enough to quote a definitive source. Thank you Ian. - David Lyga
 

Jesper

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Leica wanted to produce a competitive alternative to the 6x9cm folders of the day and kept the 1:1.5 ratio thus making 24x36mm the standard size.
 

Colin Corneau

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What a bizarre thing to post, given the actual war that claimed untold lives and caused untold misery.

You may want to re-think how you phrase things, in future.
 

Nicholas Lindan

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There was 828 Bantam - 28x40mm frames with a 10:7 aspect. 126 Instamatic was 28x28mm. Both used 35mm film with a single perforation / frame. There isn't any reason for the perforation if the camera uses the same pinch roller technique used on many MF cameras.

There is an awful lot to be said for sticking with a standard, no matter how compromised: can't buy 126 or 828 film any more; or 110 or 620 or many other Kodak originated formats.
 

darinwc

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Artistically, I disagree with the idea that a more square format is better because it fits the magazine and print frames.
The extra horizontal space really gives me choices for cropping at print time. I can crop one side or the other depending on how I want to present the image. Or I can crop just a pinch from the top and bottom of the frame to make a nice panorama.
 

E. von Hoegh

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Wow. I saw the thread title, and thought "WTF - WWII was over in August 1945, not the 'late forties' ".

I then read the first post. I guess enough history (both world and photographic) has been forgotten or never learned or just not respected that that made sense as a thread title. At best it was thoughtless and ignorant. I won't post what my "at worst" description is.
 
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one90guy

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I guess I do not understand what difference it makes. We have so many brands and formats to choose from. I also found the thread header wording in bad taste.

David
 

MattKing

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Wow. I saw the thread title, and thought "WTF - WWII was over in August 1945, not the 'late forties' ".

I then read the first post. I guess enough history (both world and photographic) has been forgotten or never learned or just not respected that that made sense as a thread title. At best it was thoughtless and ignorant. I won't post what my "at worst" description is.

I agree, and think it is appropriate to ask the moderators for a thread title change.
 

mike c

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The OP did not mention any thing about WII as far as I understood, but I'm sure there was and still is competition between the two company's, don't now if it was much about frame size. Still its an interesting thought to delve into large company's policies. Making movie and camera film stock interchangeable would make cents,but the frame size would be the choice of the camera maker. Although marketing and large processing faculties would have a great influence on the what frame size was popular.
Just noticed the title change.

Mike
 

Ian Grant

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As the first to reply, and many hours on it's probably right to say that history is against Eastman Kodak with regards to all their attempts at new formats. No other company has lost so much money in the pursuit of things not needed :D

828 was their worst and despite it being a non runner with regards to other manufacturers cameras they persisted by relaunching it slightly modified in 126 cassettes . . . . . . OK that did help people like my my mum, but like many others she moved on to the higher quality of 35mm cameras. 110 and Disc film were even worse.

I read a web page a few years ago that insisted Kodak invented photography (it was US based) but the reality is photography was around long before Kodak, and there were very many more pioneering companies like Wratten & Wainwright (who Kodak bought), Agfa, Ilford, Lumiere, Perutz (who made the first roll film) and the list is very long.

Ian
 

John Austin

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I wish Nikon had continued with their 24x32 format, but that is history, 'though I am not engaging with the "war" argument

Another format I used for a while was the Robot Royal 24x24mm, which was quite handy - Heinz Kilfit's 35mm SLR was also 24mm square - (Don't argue, I have seen and handled one, but it didn't work - Think of a flimsy Contaflex with an even flimsier WLF)
 
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What a bizarre thing to post, given the actual war that claimed untold lives and caused untold misery.

You may want to re-think how you phrase things, in future.

Colin,

The use of the phrase '<something or other> war(s)' is pretty common these days. I've heard and read it used often in technology e.g. the format war between laser disk and VHS, or between Blu-Ray and whatever else it was. 'The war in Congress...' The OP did mention the late 40s so he could not have been thinking of the war you're thinking of. "Bizarre"? That's just silly.

My father-in-law saw things in the Pacific theater he won't talk about to this day and, in WWI, my grandfather spent the night in a cave only to find out in the morning everyone else in there was dead. Neither one had as light a trigger about "the war" as you appear to.

I'm in no position to critique Mr. Lyga's assertion about the film format war but I don't see where he owes anybody an apology for his choice of words. It's dangerous to become too delicate; it tends to stifle free, wide-ranging thought. And what a loss that would be.

s-usually putting my foot in it-a
 
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I dont mind the ratio, but I agree that if there werent any sprockets much economy could have been achieved, production would also have been easier. As for transport maybe a friction system on edges, or even just one roll of sprockets such as in smaller motion films.
 

wblynch

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The whole beginning with 35mm stills was camera makers "cheating" by using motion picture film. I think Leica started it all(?) It sure wasn't the film makers' idea.

So sprockets make sense. It couldn't have happened without them.
 
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Yeah - different generation, different lexicon. I really don't think anyone means anything negative about it; it's just the way it is. Like a poster above said - try looking at any magazine rack at B&N for example, and you'll see all kinds of titles and subtitles alluding to "wars" that are not really wars in truth. Just an expression these days. (Not saying it's right or wrong, but we shouldn't assume the OP meant it offensively!) :wink:

Hmmm back to the meat of the post...as a dedicated 35mm shooter, I think I would very much enjoy a design with one sprocket hole in-between frames, or a clamp and spool type system with no sprockets at all. The extra mm of frame size could probably eek out one size larger on the final print. :D
 
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David Lyga

David Lyga

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First, the last thing I intended was to either offend or downplay that sorry period after Pearl Harbor. In fact, my subliminal intention was to actually mitigate any lingering hatred towards the Japanese by 'allowing' them to have been 'correct' in this latter 'war'. If the military types out there are yet offended I, again, apologize, but, at the same time, uphold my initial legitimacy with my carefully chosen wording. I am not at fault here.

We all fight 'wars': with wives, significant others, friends, customer service, government, etc. "War" does not have to be construed as unmentionable unless such censoring has a specific agenda in order to shut up certain mindsets. For example, when the USA murdered hundreds of thousands, (if not millions!), in Vietnam (Johnson, Nixon), Latin America (Reagan), Irag (Bush W), and, yes, Afghanistan (Bush W, Obama) all for 'freedom of mankind' hyperbole and support of the military industrial complex (which Dwight Eisenhower was prescient and intelligent and fair enough to loudly declaim), when it was REALLY for filling the pockets of some 'connected fortunates' (like Dick Cheney) with filthy lucre ... we THEN rarely cry fowl. We pick and choose whom to hate (as with professional sports) and oftentimes that choice is predicated upon selfish interests and blatant, collective ego aggrandizement geared solely to promote the grandeur of military might and fright. We are lost as a society if we do not have an enemy to loudly hate. That dire need to hate is our collective downfall folks.

No I do not fit into your standard patriotic mold and if that defines me as treacherous rather than the open-minded and trenchantly fair and upright person I think myself to be, then so be it: MODERATOR: then further purge my prose of such outspoken, perfidious, prolixic parody. You have already (safely) satisfied many of my detractors by changing my thread's title.

But, instilled with guilt I shall not be, no matter how much you patriots try to allow no dissent to manifest on your collective watch. The Red White and Blue means something to me other than conquest. Pacification means something to me other than superior fire power. And the noble concept of 'unification' seems to be washed down the river in the process of meting out further hate in our so called political process misnamed democracy. - David Lyga
 
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