I'd like a Leica but ...

[eddym]

How many people carry a leica in the pocket?

Since I do, I'll start: 1...
Leica M6, 35mm f2 Summicron. Easily pocketable, though more often it's in my hand for quick shots. Or slow shots.

 

[eddym]

well, yeah, no m-mount camera is going to fit in a pocket.

BS. Maybe you need bigger pockets.

 

[fschifano]

I'm sorry, but I must take issue with the Leicaphiles. No doubt, they are all beautiful pieces of gear and the lenses are top notch. I've used them and found them to be just delightful.

But you know, the Bessa R cameras are really nice too. I've used them too. Their glass is also top notch. It's not as if all these lens formulae are proprietary. Modern lens designs were perfected decades ago. What makes modern lenses as good as they are are the anti-reflection coatings, and that's no secret either. Modern manufacturing techniques allow for many many copies of a single design to be made, all held to very close tolerances; so I can't really buy the Leica mystique any more. Sure the Bessa is a bit noisier than a Leica, and it doesn't have the feel of the Leica; but it is a damned fine picture making machine to be had for a mere fraction of the Leica price. Add two or three hundred to the $500 you already have from the sale of your lens and you can set yourself up nicely. And you know, I actually like the Bessa R cameras' viewfinders better than the Leica's It's brighter and has very good contrast in the rangefinder patch.

 

[Rolleiflexible]

Frank, I'm not a big Leica shooter
-- I shoot most of my stuff with
Rolleiflexes, and the rest with Kodak
Brownies and a view camera. But
my wife shoots a Bessa and a Leica,
and the Leica is built better. It's not
just a matter of noise. The lens barrels
brass easily. The plastic on the bodies
discolors, and the paint on the metal
wears visibly. Granted, my wife works
her gear hard. But after a year or so,
the Bessa looks beat, while the Leica
looks pretty much as it did when she
bought it.

 

[Kvistgaard]

Apologies for bringing this thread back to the point, but have you (Hugh) considered one of the small ricoh rangefinders? They are definitely pocketable, they are said to be very good optically, and they won't blow your budget. And you can get them brand new, as I understand it.

 

[Eric Rose]

I've got two Leica's and have had a Bessa R. Yes the Bessa's show wear after awhile, but I've never had a photo suffer from a scuffed camera body before. The Leica's are nice cameras but not worth the premium AFAIC. VC optics are great.

I must say however that I love the spot meter in my M5. Unless your taking pictures during a funeral who cares how loud a camera is (within reason, RB's are very noisy). I shot for a newspaper for years and used a motorized Nikon F. Didn't miss a shot due to noise, ever.

My everyday shooter for 35mm is a Nikon F5.

 

[fschifano]

Frank, I'm not a big Leica shooter
-- I shoot most of my stuff with
Rolleiflexes, and the rest with Kodak
Brownies and a view camera. But
my wife shoots a Bessa and a Leica,
and the Leica is built better. It's not
just a matter of noise. The lens barrels
brass easily. The plastic on the bodies
discolors, and the paint on the metal
wears visibly. Granted, my wife works
her gear hard. But after a year or so,
the Bessa looks beat, while the Leica
looks pretty much as it did when she
bought it.

So the camera has some "patina"? So what? A beat up looking Bessa doesn't attract a lot of attention, and it is inexpensive enough so that you won't care it it is beat. A camera is not jewelry for me. I don't want to attract attention with it. I want to make a photograph. A little scuffed paint or a little brassing never stopped me from doing that.

 

[Rolleiflexible]

So the camera has some "patina"? So what? A beat up looking Bessa doesn't attract a lot of attention, and it is inexpensive enough so that you won't care it it is beat. A camera is not jewelry for me. I don't want to attract attention with it. I want to make a photograph. A little scuffed paint or a little brassing never stopped me from doing that.

Frank, it was a lot of "patina" for
a year of use. And the damage to
Bessa included a broken rewind
lever.

I agree cosmetics are unimportant.
But Melanie's experience suggests
that the Bessas are not built to
withstand the abuses of time as well
as the Leicas. Her 70-year-old IIIa
is in better shape than her year-old
Bessa -- and her IIIa gets much
more use.

If you consider the real costs to
include the useful life of the camera,
I'm not sure the Bessa is the better
value.

 

[k_jupiter]

Pardon the following series of rants....

Rant 1: I have a minilux. Piece of garbage. Useless brick, tiny godawful VF, very cheap foldup mechanism. One of the worst cameras I ever had the poor judgement of buying. Want it? $100 to the first PM. I miss my konica hexar AF and would, in a heartbeat, reach for that before the f@&%ing minilux.

Rant 2: IMHO it's complete nonsense to get a decades-old camera just because it's a Leica and you think that it'll make some difference. Are the leica prices inflated? Uhhh... yeah! So then why would you, with your tight budget constraints, settle for less camera because you're interested in a brand that is inflated in value? Sorry, it's just not logical to me! We're in a tanking economy in which the cost of *new* products has never been so low (see rant 4 for further details). Think about it! Spend wisely!

Rant 3: I also don't understand this business of trying to suggest various MF camera when a person posts, in a very clear way, that he is interested in a compact 35mm RF.

Rant 4: Shouldn't we be encouraging the purchase of new cameras anyway? Sorry, but sometimes these threads start to sound like antiques road show. Look there are plenty of *new* cameras out there that aren't that far out of your range. Not only will you be under warranty, but in many cases you'll be getting a better performer as well, with the option of spending your hard-earned money on lenses. But perhaps most importantly, you will be helping to keep analogue cameramaking alive.

Rant 5: I agree with Chan Tran , if you get a camera that has excessive object value then you may not feel so inclined to use it in the way you'd like, or in a way that'd be productive. I use olympus xas as pocket cameras, and they are superb. What's more useful, the camera you have with you often, and use often, or the camera that you're afraid you might scuff. Like I said before, the really nice thing about the xa is that if you are mugged, you can throw the camera at your mugger. They won't expect that, and you won't care.

Personally, with the aforementioned budget, I would save up a bit and get a bessa or Zeiss Ikon than go for some old M with which I'd immediately have to sweat the shutter and CLA and baby. You want fantastic used camera for a realistic price? Go for a contax g2 or xpan or TX1 and be happy.

Rant 1. Who cares?
Rant 2. He has a small amount of money to spend. That isn't going to hack anything new. As far as Leica vs. anything else. I suggested soemthing else.
Rant 3. If you have no idea why I suggested a Fujica GS645, keep quiet. That camera will fit in a large coat pocket and blow your bloody Leicas out the water, all day, every day.
Rant 4. Want a new camera, buy one and leave us bottom dwellers alone. I have better things to do with my money that carry a camera out of the store and watch it depreciate in from of my eyes.


tim in san jose

 

[keithwms]

Rant 1. Who cares?
Rant 2. He has a small amount of money to spend. That isn't going to hack anything new. As far as Leica vs. anything else. I suggested soemthing else.
Rant 3. If you have no idea why I suggested a Fujica GS645, keep quiet. That camera will fit in a large coat pocket and blow your bloody Leicas out the water, all day, every day.
Rant 4. Want a new camera, buy one and leave us bottom dwellers alone. I have better things to do with my money that carry a camera out of the store and watch it depreciate in from of my eyes.


tim in san jose

Chill Tim

I shot the fujicas for quite a while and have spoken favourably of them here on numerous occasions, and referred people to the dante stella site. But a Fujica 645 has just about nothing in common with an RF as specified by the original poster:

"I'd like to get something compact with a wide lens, a low aperture and a built-in light meter."

I assume compact means pocketable... most of the Fujica 645s are not; the folders, well that is debatable. Also, the widest lens on the Fujicas are hardly wide at all... I had a ga645w and that was kindawide (45mm) but not anywhere near as wide as the lenses that people routinely use and value on 35mm RFs. And lens speed, well... enough said. The Fujicas do have built in metering; you scored there.

New camera... well... the point is... ah forget it, either you get it or you don't. Some folks want to spend $500+ on a 30 year old camera and they can go right ahead. Just don't expect me to shed a tear when Leica goes out of business for lack of new camera sales.

Look I am hardly an equipment elitist, I have about 20 or so cameras ranging from new to 100+ years old and I value them all for what they do. I certainly would not refer to somebody who *prefers* an M3 or Fujica or whatever as a bottom-feeder.

 

[k_jupiter]

I'm chilled.
I'm not the one with the rants. *L*

Over and Out.

tim in san jose

 

[keithwms]

In my defense, I did say "Pardon the following series of rants...."

 

[Lee L]

That camera will fit in a large coat pocket and blow your bloody Leicas out the water, all day, every day.

I only know one person with a bloody Leica, another APUG member who used his M4 in self defense against an assault by a big guy with a knife. The guy with the knife ended up unconscious with a broken collar bone. Leica cleaned the blood and flesh out of the rewind at no charge when they found out the M4 was used in self defense.

And they say the Pen F is mightier than the sword ...

Lee

 

[wayne naughton]

you've got a fuji 6x9, why not add a ga645pro to your collection? great lens, easy to use, not very big for a mf rangefinder and great value. off the top of my head there are 60 and 90mm versions and one with a short zoom. i suppose it would fit into a jacket pocket...just...grin

wayne

edit: and if i had read a bit closer some of the previous posts i might have kept my lips zipped....so sorry

 

[Eric Rose]

I bow to Sander's and his lovely wife's experience. While my Bessa did a lot of traveling with me and took lots of photos I did not put it to "hard" use so to speak. My M5 is 3 times the camera the Leica III is but would probably be to heavy for your lass.

 

[Larry Bullis]

My everyday shooter for 35mm is a Nikon F5.

Jeez, you must have really big pockets and a strong belt.

I, too, love the M5. What a beast! Vastly underrated - but that is my OPINION. What's an opinion worth?

I would suggest that we refrain, in general, from argument that springs from personal taste. It is rather unbecoming.

Eric, that is NOT at all directed at you. It is from my irritation at some of the banter that is going on here over the entirety of the 7 pages so far. C'mon. I like to shoot with what I like, and I will not suggest the each of you should agree with me.

 

[nemo999]

Pardon the following series of rants....

...

Rant 2: IMHO it's complete nonsense to get a decades-old camera just because it's a Leica and you think that it'll make some difference. Are the leica prices inflated? Uhhh... yeah! So then why would you, with your tight budget constraints, settle for less camera because you're interested in a brand that is inflated in value? Sorry, it's just not logical to me! We're in a tanking economy in which the cost of *new* products has never been so low (see rant 4 for further details). Think about it! Spend wisely!

...

Rant 5: I agree with Chan Tran , if you get a camera that has excessive object value then you may not feel so inclined to use it in the way you'd like, or in a way that'd be productive. I use olympus xas as pocket cameras, and they are superb. What's more useful, the camera you have with you often, and use often, or the camera that you're afraid you might scuff. Like I said before, the really nice thing about the xa is that if you are mugged, you can throw the camera at your mugger. They won't expect that, and you won't care.

... QUOTE]

Re #2: It is a fact that a decades-old Leica is still an effective picture-taking instrument, is a pleasure to handle thanks to its precision engineering and costs around 1/5 to 1/6 (purchase price plus complete CLA) of the price of a new one (M7) which essentially is the same camera but with a meter added. Moreover, Leicas are really quite cheap to own in terms of cost per year over a long period. BUT ... if you want to use another kind of camera, I'm not going to argue with you!

Re #5: Yes, you CAN be over-protective of a pristine Leica. The best way to avoid this is not to buy one but to make sure that any you do buy have a harmless small dent or scuff to the chrome so that you will never worry about using the camera (I have 12 Leicas, all but 4 are like this and 6 of the remaing 8 get used regularly). Not that there is really anything wrong with searching out and collecting pristine Leicas, joining clubs of like-minded folks and being as obsessive as you like - it's simply got nothing to do with photography!

 

[Fotoguy20d]

How many people carry a leica in the pocket?

I've stuck my IIIc with 50mm Elmar into my back jeans pocket - probably looks pretty funny and it's not the most comfortable thing but it fits. And, stuffing it into a jacket pocket is cake. I'm more likely to do this with my Zorki I with Industar-22 since I can't say I care much what happens to it.

There's a thought for you. For around $50-75 you can get a Zorki I with Industar 22 collapsible lens. It's small, cheap, portable and looks like a Leica and it's capable of quite respectable photos. But, it feels nothing like it from a use standpoint - controls are stiff and clunky and the shutter is noisier. Still, a decent IIIc with Elmar will run you $250-300.

Dan

 

[Rolleiflexible]

My M5 is 3 times the camera the Leica III is
but would probably be to heavy for your lass.

I bought the M2 body for Melanie
but she went back to the IIIa -- she
prefers the IIIa's smaller size and feel.

It's hard to appreciate just how small
the IIs and IIIs are, and what a
difference it makes, until you use one.
I find my II much easier to balance and
hold steady at slow speeds than my M3.

 

[lens_hacker]

My daughter had no problems with the M3. She is 10. She liked it better than the Nikon SP.

 

[Anscojohn]

I only know one person with a bloody Leica, another APUG member who used his M4 in self defense against an assault by a big guy with a knife. The guy with the knife ended up unconscious with a broken collar bone. Leica cleaned the blood and flesh out of the rewind at no charge when they found out the M4 was used in self defense.

And they say the Pen F is mightier than the sword ...

Lee

*****
An Argus C3 would have made a nastier wound, ahbetcha!

 

[keithwms]

Now, an XA doesn't have the heft of a Leica nor the sharp edges of a C3, but its size makes it just about right to cram down someone's throat... without need to retract a lens.

 

[Fotoguy20d]

This thread seems to have taken a violent turn.

My Kiev (Contax copy) might make a good weapon - heavy, sharpish edges, and cheap. For shear heft, though, I'm thinking it would be hard to beat my Canon A-1 with Motor Drive MA (and its 12 AA batteries) .

Dan

 

[IloveTLRs]

How many people carry a leica in the pocket?

I do. A Barnack Leica with an Elmar on it. Using the built-in viewfinder it fits quite nicely in my pocket.

Who needs a light meter?

 

[Richard Jepsen]

I have experience with both the MP and Minolta CL. The CL is an amazing compact camera with a lens set as good as Leica for the time period. It's inexpensive, has a great meter, shutter control, and is built better than the Leica CL. Do web searches for the ins and outs of the different serial models. The CLE fixes all the issues the CL's had. You can harvest shutter parts for the CLE if needed from the bazillion Minoltas manufactured. The CL or CLE fit in your hand and slip into a fanny pack.