Ica and Zeiss Ikon Ideal and related cameras, pop-off plate holders

Romanko · Sep 8, 2024

Spotmatic said:
I wanted to know: was this camera created to work with 9x12 plates or 9x12 film?

Glass plates. You can use film in it if you buy a film sheath (film insert) for the glass plate holder. Foma makes 9x12 sheet film. Before I bought the film sheaths I used to attach the film to a sheet of thin acrylic using a water-soluble glue. The film is attached substrate side to the acrylic to mimic a glass plate.
Does your camera come with holders? They are not interchangeable between different plate camera makes and models.
"Modern" film holders in 9x12 format are not compatible with your camera.
As an option you can find a roll film back for your ICA though it kind of defeats the purpose of a plate camera.

Wolfgang Kraus · Sep 9, 2024

Spotmatic said:
Hi everyone! I recently bought an Ica Nelson 225 online with Tessar 15 mm 3.5 (it hasn't arrived yet). It's my first large format.

I wanted to know: was this camera created to work with 9x12 plates or 9x12 film?

There Is no difference and It just necessary to buy the 9x12 film chassis? If so, what type should I buy? Are the modern ones also good?

Sorry but it's my first large format! Thank you

Welcome to the forum!

Back in the day when these cameras were made, plates were the standard. The only way of using film was film packs in the special film pack holders, but they have been out of production for many decades. To use modern sheet film you need to insert film sheaths – already mentioned several times in this thread – into your plate holder. Will the camera come with a holder? If not it is always a bit of a gamble to find holders that fit. In theory the Nelson should take the same holders as my Ideal 225, which are relatively easy to find compared to more rare types. Finding the sheaths (sometimes called septums in English, or Filmhalter e.g. by Agfa) may take longer. Part of the challenge is that many online sellers mislabel their items. Good luck!

Edit: crossed with previous post.

Spotmatic · Sep 9, 2024

Thanks for the quick responses! Anyway, it couldn't get any worse. The camera arrives without a chassis and I have already understood that finding even one will be a very difficult challenge, but even if I succeeded it would still become a camera for just one shoot.

Is there really no modern chassis that fits?

Wolfgang Kraus · Sep 9, 2024

Spotmatic said:
Thanks for the quick responses! Anyway, it couldn't get any worse. The camera arrives without a chassis and I have already understood that finding even one will be a very difficult challenge, but even if I succeeded it would still become a camera for just one shoot.

Is there really no modern chassis that fits?

Unfortunately not. Again, the film holders can be found and the inserts too if you take your time. The method mentioned by @Romanko above sounds really cool; even taping the film to a plate will work but less well.

Spotmatic · Sep 9, 2024

So should I find the chassis of the Ica Nelson or the Ica Ideal 9x12? Wouldn't those from another ICA 9x12 be fine? Because I would have found those of an Ica Dresden Sirene 135 9x12 format, would they work?

Spotmatic · Sep 9, 2024

I found this one..you think It's ok? Thanks everyone

Wolfgang Kraus · Sep 9, 2024

Spotmatic said:
I found this one..you think It's ok? Thanks everyone

Why don’t you just check the list I posted? There you have all the information you want. Ica Sirene is not mentioned because it uses slide-in holders that will not fit your camera. What you need are 726/6 holders; the later 726/7 and earlier 727/6 may also fit. Later holders will be labeled Zeiss Ikon rather than Ica. But there is no guarantee that a 726/6 made in 1927 will fit your camera from 1922 or before – although it should in theory.

From my post #9 above:
The 1919 Ica list states that 726 and 727 holders were both compatible with film pack holders 728. However, it warned that when ordering a film pack holder, “In addition to the code number the serial number of the camera must be stated.” This implies that there may have been changes concerning the fit, either between 726 and 727 or over time.

Think of it as a hunting challenge.

JPD · Sep 9, 2024

Spotmatic said:
Hi everyone! I recently bought an Ica Nelson 225 online with Tessar 15 mm 3.5 (it hasn't arrived yet). It's my first large format.

I wanted to know: was this camera created to work with 9x12 plates or 9x12 film?

You can use 9x12 sheet film if you have adapters (film sheaths) for the plate holders. http://camera-wiki.org/wiki/Film_sheath

You can also use a fitting roll film holder.

Plate holders are discussed here: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/9x12-plate-holders-1.39756/

lobitar · Sep 9, 2024

Just for the record: Are you sure the lens is f.3,5 and not f.4.5? I don't think ICA/Zeiss ever offered a Nelson or Ideal or the like in 9x12 cm size with a 15 cm (not mm!) lens with f.3.5 max. aperture - the front simply couldn't accomodate such a large lens? In the late twenties they offered a Trona 9x12 with a 13,5 cm f.3,5 lens as an deluxe option. This camera was especially strong and precisely built, and expensive.
I take it what you call a 'chassis' is what is normally called a (film) back. Do you have the ground glass focusing back. If so, why don't you simply try out the film holder pictured, possibly keeping it in place with one or more rubber bands?
This was - if memory serves me - promoted by one Jason Schneider writing the Collectors Column of Modern Photography in the (early?) 1970'ies, when relating his experiences with the Ideal 9x12.

Spotmatic · Sep 10, 2024

Ok guys, I incredibly found five 726/6 plate holders very quickly.
Now obviously it's difficult to find film sheats for 9x12 film, I was wondering: are there other solutions? in addition to taping the film to the glass.

I read on another forum that someone uses a piece of cardboard the same thickness as a glass plate, is it usable? has anyone tried it?

Ron (Netherlands) · Sep 10, 2024

Spotmatic said:
Ok guys, I incredibly found five 726/6 plate holders very quickly.
Now obviously it's difficult to find film sheats for 9x12 film, I was wondering: are there other solutions? in addition to taping the film to the glass.

I read on another forum that someone uses a piece of cardboard the same thickness as a glass plate, is it usable? has anyone tried it?

some use thin sheets of plywood; but seems to tick to me

Romanko · Sep 10, 2024

Spotmatic said:
I read on another forum that someone uses a piece of cardboard the same thickness as a glass plate, is it usable? has anyone tried it?

Any sheet material around 1.2 mm thick would do the trick. I used acrylic and thin aluminium. Steel would work as well. The sheath are not hard to make from steel or brass.

Donald Qualls · Sep 10, 2024

You can also buy actual glass plates in 9x12 from Zebra (and from J.Lane when he comes back off moving-induced hiatus).

Jonathan-sv · Sep 11, 2024

Spotmatic said:
Ok guys, I incredibly found five 726/6 plate holders very quickly.
Now obviously it's difficult to find film sheats for 9x12 film, I was wondering: are there other solutions? in addition to taping the film to the glass.

I read on another forum that someone uses a piece of cardboard the same thickness as a glass plate, is it usable? has anyone tried it?

Someone on this forum told me about www.alternativephotographicsupplies.com, which have

Negative insert (septum)9x12 cm > Szlachetna Fotografia

Negative insert (septum)9x12 cm Negative inserts are indispensable each time we want to use sheet film (as the ones made these days) in order to take pictures with the older type of photographic camera with film holders designed to take glass negtives. Th

www.alternativephotographicsupplies.com

I assumed they were the film sheaths but I haven't actually ordered any yet.

Donald Qualls · Sep 11, 2024

Jonathan-sv said:
I assumed they were the film sheaths but I haven't actually ordered any yet.

The item pictured is in fact a film sheath. And unlike plate holders, those are the same for all 9x12 plate cameras.

JPD · Sep 12, 2024

Donald Qualls said:
The item pictured is in fact a film sheath. And unlike plate holders, those are the same for all 9x12 plate cameras.

No, many plate holders have tabs in the corners that need to be in contact with the plate/film, so the film sheaths need to accomodate for that or the focus will be slanted. This illustration shows the tabs in the Voigtländer plate holders and what type of film sheath should be used. Many of mine are old Agfa/Orwo Filmhalter, and they work perfectly. The ICA/Zeiss Ikon 726/6 plate holders also need this type of film sheaths. Of course, that other type of film sheath can be modified with a Dremel and a file to work. You just need to remove some of the folded parts.

Ron (Netherlands) · Sep 13, 2024

Donald Qualls said:
The item pictured is in fact a film sheath. And unlike plate holders, those are the same for all 9x12 plate cameras.

Different than JPD I do agree with Donald; I've many, many different plateholders, and many sheats for these (6,5x9, 9x12, 10x15, half plate, 13x18 and whole plate), and never had problems fitting the film sheats with any of the many different plateholders.

Btw you might have more luck finding 9x12 sheats on the German Ebay site (I had a link to one of them but apparently the moderaters deleted the link). Apparently we are only allowed to direct each other to links via a pm. Some argue to make sheats from plate material but if you haven't experience with that and don't have the right machining, you better don't go that route; it is also hard to find the right plate material.

JPD · Sep 13, 2024

Ron (Netherlands) said:
Different than JPD I do agree with Donald; I've many, many different plateholders, and many sheats for these (6,5x9, 9x12, 10x15, half plate, 13x18 and whole plate), and never had problems fitting the film sheats with any of the many different plateholders.

Btw you might have more luck finding 9x12 sheats on the German Ebay site (I had a link to one of them but apparently the moderaters deleted the link). Apparently we are only allowed to direct each other to links via a pm. Some argue to make sheats from plate material but if you haven't experience with that and don't have the right machining, you better don't go that route; it is also hard to find the right plate material.

I tried Kodak plate holders with a frame and pressure plate that can use both plates and sheet film, but they kept the film slanted so only a part of the negative was in acceptable focus. The upper part of the film was about a millimeter farther back than the bottom part. Unusable.

Donald Qualls · Sep 13, 2024

JPD said:
I tried Kodak plate holders with a frame and pressure plate that can use both plates and sheet film, but they kept the film slanted so only a part of the negative was in acceptable focus. The upper part of the film was about a millimeter farther back than the bottom part. Unusable.

That sounds like the spring leaves at one end may be bent or weak. I'm pretty sure they kept the film plane parallel to the plate surface when new. Kodak paid attention to that kind of thing back in the 1920s/1930s.

Romanko · Sep 16, 2024

Ron (Netherlands) said:
Btw you might have more luck finding 9x12 sheats on the German Ebay site

What is the German term for the sheath/insert?

lobitar · Sep 16, 2024

Planfilmeinlagen (I think)

JensH · Sep 16, 2024

lobitar said:
Planfilmeinlagen (I think)

That's correct.

JPD · Sep 16, 2024

lobitar said:
Planfilmeinlagen (I think)

And Filmhalter, as Agfa and ORWO called them.

Ron (Netherlands) · Sep 22, 2024

It takes quite some perseverance to find them; they are not often offered, or only in combination with the holders they are in. ..... I once had to find specific 9x12 holders for a specific ICA camera; only after 4 years I came across 2 of them.

Last few weeks I see only Orwo-sheats offered, for 10x15cm plates

These are from Agfa (not for sale)

Spotmatic · Sep 24, 2024

Hi everyone. Anyone know precisely what are the measurements of the frosted glass of the Ica Ideal 225?
I need a new glass but I couldn't find it on sale, so I was thinking of having someone do it by hand , but I need the measurements down to the millimetre.
Thanks!

Ica and Zeiss Ikon Ideal and related cameras, pop-off plate holders

Attachments

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency