Ica and Zeiss Ikon Ideal and related cameras, pop-off plate holders

Wolfgang Kraus · Jan 23, 2024

In an attempt to search for information on the right holders for my Zeiss Ikon Ideal 225 and on suitable cameras for some 10x15 cm holders that I picked up, I compiled the relevant information from the price lists and catalogs published between 1912 and 1931. This might be useful for others so I’ll post it here, inviting your additions and corrections.

The Ideal line of folding bed plate cameras was originally made by the Hüttig AG of Dresden which merged in 1909 with other manufacturers to form Ica, the Internationale Camera Actiengesellschaft. Ica in turn merged with others in 1926 and became Zeiss Ikon. Ideal cameras were apparently built until 1939 (?).

From 1912 onward, the following models were advertised. Since most lists only cover a part of the products being made the absence of a model in a specific year does not necessarily mean that it was not available. E.g., there is no reason to assume that in 1919, where the list is especially short, 10x15 cm and 13x18 cm models were not marketed.

6,5x9 cm:
1912: Ica Ideal 111
1919: Ica Ideal 111
1922: Ica Ideal 111
1925: Ica Ideal 111
1927: Zeiss Ikon Ideal 111
1931: Zeiss Ikon Ideal 250/3

9x12 cm:

1912: Ica Ideal 205	Ica Nelson 225	Ica Ideal 246
1919: Ica Ideal 205	–	Ica Ideal 246
1922: Ica Ideal 205	Ica Nelson 225	Ica Ideal 246
1925: Ica Niklas 205	Ica Ideal 225	Ica Ideal 246
1927: Zeiss Ikon Niklas 205	Zeiss Ikon Ideal 225	Zeiss Ikon Ideal 246
1931: –	Zeiss Ikon Ideal 250/7	–

Among the various 9x12 models made by Ica, 205 cameras had single extension; Ideal 205 was replaced by Niklas 205 after 1922.
Nelson 225 was replaced by Ideal 225 after 1922. When both 225 and 246 were named Ideal, 225 models were advertised as having a stronger construction than 246 models in order to accommodate faster and heavier lenses. 246 models were equipped with cheaper and slower lenses.

10x15 cm:
1912: Ica Ideal 325
1919:
1922: Ica Ideal 325
1925: Ica Ideal 325
1927: Zeiss Ikon Ideal 325
1931: Zeiss Ikon Ideal 250/9

13x18 cm:
1912: Ica Ideal 385
1919:
1922: Ica Ideal 385
1925: Ica Ideal 385
1927: Zeiss Ikon Ideal 385 (1927)
1931: Zeiss Ikon Ideal ??*

* The 1931 list mentions a 13x18 model but refers to the main catalogue for details.

In the US the Ideal cameras were marketed as Model A (6,5x9 cm/ 2½x3½"), Model B (9x12 cm/ 3¼x4¾"), and Model C (13x18 cm/ 5x7").

Sources:
Ica Illustrierte Preisliste über photographische Apparate und Bedarfsartikel 1912-1913
Ica-Cameras 1919 (Liste 101, Dresden, 1. Januar 1919)
Ica Cameras 1922 (Liste 116 C)
Ica Cameras und Zubehör 1925 (Liste 125 C)
Zeiss Ikon Cameras und Zubehör 1927 (Liste C 219 a/Tschechoslowakei, Dresden, 1. April 1927)
Zeiss Ikon Cameras und Zubehör. Auszugliste 1931 (C473 RM, Dresden, April 1931)

Ica catalogs - From the focal plane to infinity

Ica catalogs 1919, 1922, 1925. Ica cameras, Atom, Sirene, Ideal, Niklas, Orix, Trona, Icarette, Halloh, film holders...

web.archive.org

To be continued with information on the characteristic pop-off plate holders of Ideal and related cameras.

Wolfgang Kraus · Jan 24, 2024

Pop-off plate holders* for 6.5x9 cm and the cameras they fit:

726/2 (6x9 format according to 1919 list)

1912 .	1919 .	1922 .	1925 .	1927 .	1931 .
Cupido 75	Cupido 75	–	–	–	–
Niklas 109	Niklas 109	–	–	–	–
Ideal 111	Ideal 111	–	–	–	–

726/3 (already mentioned in 1919 list, replaced 726/2)

1912 .	1919 .	1922 .	1925 .	1927 .	1931 .
–	–	–	Bébé 41/2	Bébé 41/2	–
–	–	Cupido 75	Cupido 75	–	–
–	–	Niklas 109	Niklas 109	Niklas 109	–
–	–	Ideal 111	Ideal 111	Ideal 111	Ideal 250/3
–	–	–	–	–	Bébé 342/3

* The term used in US catalogues is clamp-on plate holders.

Sources: same as in first post.

Ian Grant · Jan 24, 2024

It would be interesting to find Hüttig and Krügener catalogues.

Here in the UK William Butcher imported and distributed cameras made by both companies, also manufacturing their own cameras in the UK some using some German parts. This seems to have worked two ways as the ICA Tudor Reflex camera is actually a re-badged Butcher Pressman with an ICA and later Zeiss Ikon badge. The design must have been a Butcher/Krügener joint project.

I have quite a few German 9x12 cameras and the plate holder compatibility is a minefield for the uninitiated. I'm lucky most of mine take the same edge fit

Ian

JensH · Jan 24, 2024

Hi,

yes, a minefield... and there are double plate holders as well (for the Tropen 285/Juwel 275...).

When looking for 9x12 cm pop on/off holders for a Zeiss microscope camera, I found three nice but unusable double ones looking like 737/6.
The matching 726/6 or 727/6 I need are smaller outside.

Jens

Wolfgang Kraus · Jan 25, 2024

Pop-off plate holders for 9x12 cm and the cameras they fit:

726/6

1912 .	1919 .	1922 .	1925 .	1927 .	1931 .
Trix 185	–	–	–	–	–
–	–	Ideal 205	Niklas 205	Niklas 205	–
Toska 215	–	–	–	–	–
Nelson 225	–	Nelson 225	Ideal 225	Ideal 225	–
Nelson 226	–	–	–	–	–
Minimal 235	–	–	–	–	–
–	–	Ideal 246	Ideal 246	Ideal 246	–
Rekord 460	Rekord 460	–	–	–	–
–	–	–	Klappreflex-Künstler- Camera 755/1	Künstler-Klappreflex 755/1	–

726/6a (made of brass for tropical use)

1912 .	1919 .	1922 .	1925 .	1927 .	1931 .
Tropica 285	–	Tropica 285	Tropica 285	–	–

726/7 (replaced 726/6)

1912 .	1919 .	1922 .	1925 .	1927 .	1931 .
–	–	–	–	–	Ideal 250/7
–	–	–	–	–	Universal-Juwel 275/7

727/6 (with a field for notes as mentioned in 1912 and 1922 lists)

1912 .	1919 .	1922 .	1925 .	1927 .	1931 .
Cupido 80	–	–	–	–	–
Ideal 205	Ideal 205	–	–	–	–
Ideal 246	Ideal 246	–	–	–	–

737/6 (wooden double plate holders)

1912 .	1919 .	1922 .	1925 .	1927 .	1931 .
Favorit 265	–	Favorit 265	Favorit 265	Favorit 265	–
Juwel 270	–	–	–	–	–
Universal-Palmos 275	–	Universal-Palmos 275	Universal-Juwel 275	Universal-Juwel 275	–

As noted before, the 1919 list is highly selective and does not include all available cameras. To a lesser extent, this may be true for the other lists too.
Sources: same as in first post.

Wolfgang Kraus · Jan 25, 2024

Pop-off plate holders for 10x15 cm and the cameras they fit:

737/9 (wooden double plate holders)

1912 .	1919 .	1922 .	1925 .	1927 .	1931 .
–	–	–	–	–	Ideal 250/9

737/12 (wooden double plate holders)

1912 .	1919 .	1922 .	1925 .	1927 .	1931 .
Reicka 305	–	–	–	–	–
–	–	Ideal 325	Ideal 325	Ideal 325	–
Toska 330	–	Toska 330	Toska 330	Toska 330	–
Favorit 335	–	Favorit 335	Favorit 335	Favorit 335	–
–	–	–	Minimum- Palmos 457	Minimum- Palmos 457	–
Stereo-Reicka 680	–	Stereo-Reicka 680	Stereo-Toska 680	Stereo-Toska 680	–
–	–	–	Klappreflex-Künstler- Camera 757	Künstler-Klappreflex 757	–

743/12 (wooden double plate holders made of teak for tropical use)

1912 .	1919 .	1922 .	1925 .	1927 .	1931 .
–	–	Tropica 345	Tropica 345	–	–

Sources: same as in first post.

Wolfgang Kraus · Jan 25, 2024

Ian Grant said:
It would be interesting to find Hüttig and Krügener catalogues.

Here in the UK William Butcher imported and distributed cameras made by both companies, also manufacturing their own cameras in the UK some using some German parts. This seems to have worked two ways as the ICA Tudor Reflex camera is actually a re-badged Butcher Pressman with an ICA and later Zeiss Ikon badge. The design must have been a Butcher/Krügener joint project.

I have quite a few German 9x12 cameras and the plate holder compatibility is a minefield for the uninitiated. I'm lucky most of mine take the same edge fit

Ian

Several pages from a Hüttig catalog (presumably from 1908, the year the Ideal was introduced) are here:

HUETTIG

The original Ideal, available at least in 6x9 cm, 9x12 cm and 13x18 cm versions, was quite different from the later models but seems to have shared the drop bed and double extension with them.

Edit: One should not believe everything one reads online. I found a mention of the Hüttig Ideal already in the Österreichische Touristen-Zeitung in 1906:

https://anno.onb.ac.at/cgi-content/annoshow-plus?call=otz|1906|0008|00000036||jpg||45|

Wolfgang Kraus · Jan 25, 2024

Pop-off plate holders for 13x18 cm and the cameras they fit:

737/11 (wooden double plate holders, replacing 737/13 after 1927)

1912 .	1919 .	1922 .	1925 .	1927 .	1931 .
–	–	–	–	–	Universal-Juwel 275/11

737/13 (wooden double plate holders)

1912 .	1919 .	1922 .	1925 .	1927 .	1931 .
Trix 365	–	Trix 365	–	–	–
–	–	–	Niklas 365	Niklas 365	–
Ideal 385	–	Ideal 385	Ideal 385	Ideal 385	–
Jul 400	–	Jul 400	Toska 400	Toska 400	–
Stereo-Jul 402	–	Stereo-Toska 402	Stereo-Toska 402	–	–
Triplex 410	–	–	–	–	–
Favorit 425	–	Favorit 425	Favorit 425	Favorit 425	–
Juwel 440	–	Juwel 440	Universal-Juwel 440	Universal-Juwel 440	–
Rekord 465	–	Rekord-Palmos 465	Rekord-Palmos 465	Rekord-Palmos 465	–

743/13 (wooden double plate holders made of teak for tropical use)

1912 .	1919 .	1922 .	1925 .	1927 .	1931 .
Tropica 435	–	Tropica 435	Tropica 435	–	–

Sources: same as in first post.

Wolfgang Kraus · Jan 25, 2024

Some remarks:

The 1919 Ica list states that 726 and 727 holders were both compatible with film pack holders 728. However, it warned that when ordering a film pack holder,
„Außer der laufenden Nummer muss die am Balgenrahmen der Camera eingeschlagene Fabrikationsnummer angegeben werden.“
Approximately translated, this means: “In addition to the code number the serial number of the camera must be stated.” This implies that there may have been changes concerning the fit, either between 726 and 727 or over time. Similar remarks are also made in later lists but it is not always clear to which types of holders they refer.

With regard to wooden holders, users have reported that holders with the same number did not always fit different cameras of the same type (e.g., https://forum.grossformatfotografie...ica-universal-juwel/?postID=152483#post152483). Again, there may have been changes over time, but it is also possible that the wooden holders were not dimensionally stable in response to storage conditions such as humidity (is there a better way of putting this in English?).

The wooden double holders 737 and 743 have the same dimensions (in principle that is), but the fixing slots on the sides are different in length. User @Ron (Netherlands) was kind enough to confirm that the standard holders (737) fit his Tropica 345 and 453 just like the teak ones (743) but was not sure if this applies the other way round too; see his photo showing several types of holders and the comments there:

In his description he states that the 737/6 double holders fit the Favorit 265 and 266 but do not fit the Tropica 285, meaning that 737/6 and the brass 726/6a are not compatible. However, the 1925 list states that the Favorit 266 uses slide-in holders rather than pop-off ones. More information is needed to clarify these issues.

Edit: The Favorit 266/7 took 666/7 holders made of nickel silver according to a 1930 catalogue that I just found (Zeiss Ikon Cameras und Zubehör, Katalog C 352 b, Dresden, 1. Feb. 1930, https://www.dontforgetyesterday.com/2022/01/28/zeiss-ikon-cameras-und-zubehoer-katalog-c352b/)

Ron (Netherlands) · Feb 10, 2024

Nice project Wolfgang!
From my own experience I know that the Favorit Tropen for 9x12 plates, could be had with different backs, one for the pop-off holders and one for slide-in holders.
Also these Favorit camera's could be had with a standard back, or with a rotating back like those fitted with the Tropicas; the Favorit 10x15 at the below picture on the right, had a rotating back (since I sold these 3 camera's I wasn't able to ascertain whether they would fit the teak holders)

This Favorit Tropen has a back to fit slide-in plateholders (at the upper right side it has a catch to get hold of the holder)

Wolfgang Kraus · Feb 10, 2024

Thank you for the thumbs-up, Ron! Your info is much appreciated – you have the real experience with these things. After reading up some more my summary is that the tables I compiled may help to avoid going completely wrong; but even if one is able to find holders with the right number there is no guarantee that they will fit.

Ron (Netherlands) · Feb 11, 2024

With regard to your above first table Wolfgang, according to CollectiBlend, Pacific Rim Camera and Collection-appareils, the Zeiss Ikon Ideal 13x18 had the type number: 250/11, the top of the line Ideal

picture by Auctions Leski

Wolfgang Kraus · Feb 11, 2024

Thank you, Ron!

JeanPaul · Jun 25, 2024

I'm not sure if this is the correct treat to respond.

I have a set of three metal 726/7 pop-off plate holders for 9x12 cm for my Ideal 225. I'm quit new to this format. The plate holders need a clean up. Does anybody have a suggestion how to handle that? They are a little bit rusty, but mostly just dirty. The slide moves a bit stiff.

Donald Qualls · Jun 25, 2024

Cleaning off the rust would be a very temporary fix unless you can restore the enamel to protect the steel. Further, unless you removed it for the photo, you'll need film sheaths to be able to use sheet film in these (though glass plates would work as is).

JeanPaul · Jun 26, 2024

Donald Qualls said:
Cleaning off the rust would be a very temporary fix unless you can restore the enamel to protect the steel. Further, unless you removed it for the photo, you'll need film sheaths to be able to use sheet film in these (though glass plates would work as is).

Hi Donald, thanks for the reply. I'm not trying to completely remove the rust. Just cleaning up. I just took one apart and cleaned it in the ultrasonic. After that a little buff to remove some light rust. The felt comes completely clean. I will start with glass plates. Is is possible to make you're own and how?

Wolfgang Kraus · Jun 26, 2024

JeanPaul said:
Hi Donald, thanks for the reply. I'm not trying to completely remove the rust. Just cleaning up. I just took one apart and cleaned it in the ultrasonic. After that a little buff to remove some light rust. The felt comes completely clean. I will start with glass plates. Is is possible to make you're own and how?

JeanPaul,

I’d be interested to learn how you accessed the felt (if you did at all).

I know of two makers of glass plates, https://zebradryplates.com/ in the EU (Slovenia) and Jason Lane (https://www.pictoriographica.com/) in the US. The latter unfortunately doesn’t seem to produce plates at this time. I have no practical experience with any of these products.

For the DIY question I guess it would be better to start a new thread to get more attention.

JeanPaul · Jun 26, 2024

Wolfgang Kraus said:
JeanPaul,

I’d be interested to learn how you accessed the felt (if you did at all).

I know of two makers of glass plates, https://zebradryplates.com/ in the EU (Slovenia) and Jason Lane (https://www.pictoriographica.com/) in the US. The latter unfortunately doesn’t seem to produce plates at this time. I have no practical experience with any of these products.

For the DIY question I guess it would be better to start a new thread to get more attention.

I used a X-Acto Knife Blade - No.4 to pry open the sides of the Plate holder. Just move the knife under, don't deform the folded sides. At the end there is a tack of solder that you carefully need to pop. Afterwards I applied some WD40 and slide the inner part from the casing. A gave it a careful tap with a peace of wood to get it sliding. Then the felt comes free. With the same knife I removed the felt. Cleaned everything ultrasonic. The German instructions mention always leave the dark slide out of the holder, otherwise the felt gets flattened. Just cleaned a bit of rust with very fine steel wool. Everything feels smooth now. Everything is now drying in the sun. I have not yet assembled everything. So fingers crossed.

Donald Qualls · Jun 26, 2024

Aaah, this is VERY good to know. I've got two Ideal cameras, an Ica 225 with 15 cm Tessar and a Zeiss 337/2 (IIRC, both 9x12 with front rise and one with drop bed) with 13.5 cm Tessar -- and a round dozen plate holders, all with film sheaths (used to be thirteen, but I'm not sure what happened to the missing one). ALL of them need attention to the felt (ideally replacement). If I can get them apart without damage, it might be worth buying an ultrasonic cleaner...

BTW, there's at least one web site around that goes into detail on making emulsion (ortho, ISO 25 or so) and coating plates with it, as well as the J.Lane and Zebra plates mentioned above. You can also buy liquid emulsion commercially, sold for making prints on "objects," and treat it like photographic paper (ISO 6 or so). Or you can search for 9x12 film sheaths, or 3x4 adaper film sheaths (let you load 3x4 film in a 9x12 plate holder).

JeanPaul · Jun 27, 2024

Donald Qualls said:
Aaah, this is VERY good to know. I've got two Ideal cameras, an Ica 225 with 15 cm Tessar and a Zeiss 337/2 (IIRC, both 9x12 with front rise and one with drop bed) with 13.5 cm Tessar -- and a round dozen plate holders, all with film sheaths (used to be thirteen, but I'm not sure what happened to the missing one). ALL of them need attention to the felt (ideally replacement). If I can get them apart without damage, it might be worth buying an ultrasonic cleaner...

BTW, there's at least one web site around that goes into detail on making emulsion (ortho, ISO 25 or so) and coating plates with it, as well as the J.Lane and Zebra plates mentioned above. You can also buy liquid emulsion commercially, sold for making prints on "objects," and treat it like photographic paper (ISO 6 or so). Or you can search for 9x12 film sheaths, or 3x4 adaper film sheaths (let you load 3x4 film in a 9x12 plate holder).

Search for 9x12 film sheaths. I've been trying that. It's down the rabbit hole stuff. I tried Google, eBay, local Marktplaats (NL), some vintage online camera stores, this forum and the Large format forum. Even tried German. All ends up none. I'll go withe the glass plates for a while from Zebra. But would love to try Fomapan film.

I'll post some pictures of the restored plate holder and the felt.

Donald Qualls · Jun 27, 2024

If you have (access to) metal bending equipment it ought to be reasonably possible to make your own film sheaths. The dimensions are well documented (and enough people on here have sufficient film sheaths for their own needs to be able to get measurements like material thickness.

lobitar · Jul 2, 2024

Here's another ICA with pop-on cassettes, my Triplex 410 13x18cm. From the original lens provided with it, a Tessar 210/4,5 it should be from 1914. The lens shown is a Steinheil Orthostigmat 240mm 6,8 (the Collinear type), with an adaptor for the Compound-3 from the Tessar. This specimen of the Orthostigmat is so-so.

Ron (Netherlands) · Jul 4, 2024

lobitar said:
Here's another ICA with pop-on cassettes, my Triplex 410 13x18cm. From the original lens provided with it, a Tessar 210/4,5 it should be from 1914. The lens shown is a Steinheil Orthostigmat 240mm 6,8 (the Collinear type), with an adaptor for the Compound-3 from the Tessar. This specimen of the Orthostigmat is so-so.

What me would interest is what plateholders you are using with this beautiful camera.

lobitar · Jul 4, 2024

I use the original 13x18 pop-on (anlege) cassette provided with the camera at a local dealer (but abt 25 years ago!), plus a cutfilm sheath. Yes, its a nice camera, only there's no tilts like on the Ideal.

Spotmatic · Sep 8, 2024

Hi everyone! I recently bought an Ica Nelson 225 online with Tessar 15 mm 3.5 (it hasn't arrived yet). It's my first large format.

I wanted to know: was this camera created to work with 9x12 plates or 9x12 film?

There Is no difference and It just necessary to buy the 9x12 film chassis? If so, what type should I buy? Are the modern ones also good?

Sorry but it's my first large format! Thank you

Ica and Zeiss Ikon Ideal and related cameras, pop-off plate holders

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