I wrote to Shanghai film about their 220 availability

PhotoJim · Oct 15, 2020

Same boat here. Two 220 backs for my Bronica SQ-series bodies, plus my 67-II will take it. But for how I shoot, swapping rolls of film more often is not that terrible a problem.

I think this is the whole reason 220 film has essentially disappeared. We have a pretty solid workaround unless you are a wedding or fashion photographer who still uses rollfilm.

David A. Goldfarb · Oct 15, 2020

PhotoJim said:
Same boat here. Two 220 backs for my Bronica SQ-series bodies, plus my 67-II will take it. But for how I shoot, swapping rolls of film more often is not that terrible a problem.

I think this is the whole reason 220 film has essentially disappeared. We have a pretty solid workaround unless you are a wedding or fashion photographer who still uses rollfilm.

That, and medium format backs have become so cheap, that you can buy as many as you can carry for not too much money. I used to have 5 for my Bronica S2A system (mainly for using the Zone system or shooting different film types, but I could also preload them all with the same film for portrait sessions), and those were switchable between 120 and 220.

Huss · Oct 15, 2020

David A. Goldfarb said:
That, and medium format backs have become so cheap, that you can buy as many as you can carry for not too much money. I used to have 5 for my Bronica S2A system (mainly for using the Zone system or shooting different film types, but I could also preload them all with the same film for portrait sessions), and those were switchable between 120 and 220.

2 backs w/ 220 is much easier to carry than 4 backs with 120.

David A. Goldfarb · Oct 15, 2020

Huss said:
2 backs w/ 220 is much easier to carry than 4 backs with 120.

Certainly, it’s a tradeoff, if you’re carrying equipment in the field, especially if the backs in question are heavy like Linhof backs. Much more film choice, currently, in 120.

ic-racer · Oct 15, 2020

Some of this reads like the 50W vs 100W guitar amplifier threads on another un-named forum .

J. Doe: Got to have 100W it is twice as loud.
T. Foo: But it is only 3dB louder
J. Doe: But that is twice as loud
T. Foo: 3dB is too small a difference to be much louder.
J. Doe: Still, it is twice as loud, like two 50W amps
T. Foo: Two 50W amps are only 3dB louder than one
etc...

BrianShaw · Oct 15, 2020

ic-racer said:
Some of this reads like the 50W vs 100W guitar amplifier threads on another un-named forum .

J. Doe: Got to have 100W it is twice as loud.
T. Foo: But it is only 3dB louder
J. Doe: But that is twice as loud
T. Foo: 3dB is too small a difference to be much louder.
J. Doe: Still, it is twice as loud, like two 50W amps
T. Foo: Two 50W amps are only 3dB louder than one
etc...

Like

Sirius Glass · Oct 15, 2020

ic-racer said:
Some of this reads like the 50W vs 100W guitar amplifier threads on another un-named forum .

J. Doe: Got to have 100W it is twice as loud.
T. Foo: But it is only 3dB louder
J. Doe: But that is twice as loud
T. Foo: 3dB is too small a difference to be much louder.
J. Doe: Still, it is twice as loud, like two 50W amps
T. Foo: Two 50W amps are only 3dB louder than one
etc...

Lachlan Young · Oct 15, 2020

ic-racer said:
Some of this reads like the 50W vs 100W guitar amplifier threads on another un-named forum .

J. Doe: Got to have 100W it is twice as loud.
T. Foo: But it is only 3dB louder
J. Doe: But that is twice as loud
T. Foo: 3dB is too small a difference to be much louder.
J. Doe: Still, it is twice as loud, like two 50W amps
T. Foo: Two 50W amps are only 3dB louder than one
etc...

And they all forget that if you put a more efficient speaker in...

Agulliver · Oct 16, 2020

I had not even heard of 220 film until I got my Kiev in 2005.....never saw it in any shop, never saw reference to it in advertising material....but then I wasn't one for reading photography magazines or hanging out with pro photographers. So while I would appreciate being able to shoot 24 6x6 in one film, and developing them on one reel rather than the faff of the extension for my Jobo tank and multiple reels of 120....I can live without. And I think that sums up the biggest problem with 220 film....it's a niche within a niche within a niche. If the biggest market was wedding photographers and they're almost all doing digital now....that leaves us lot who mostly want to buy a few rolls a year. There are few people wanting to buy a hundred or even fifty at a time. Even if I did decide I like the Shanghai film in 220, I'd still be using maybe 3-5 rolls a year unless I happen upon another 220-capable camera.

Regarding the 50 vs 100 Watt amps. I have a turntable in my office, hooked up to an old Realistic micro stereo amp which delivers 1.5 Watts per channel RMS. I have it hooked up to some quite sensitive floorstanding speakers (91dB/W/m). It's plenty loud enough for my 80m2 office. And it doesn't need to go to 11.

Huss · Oct 16, 2020

David A. Goldfarb said:
Certainly, it’s a tradeoff, if you’re carrying equipment in the field, especially if the backs in question are heavy like Linhof backs. Much more film choice, currently, in 120.

I get that.

But with cameras like the Fuji GW690III which I use, there are no film backs. So for this I would love to have a steady supply of 220 film. 8 shots vs 16. It would make it so much easier for me out shooting.

A Stuart · Oct 28, 2021

MattKing said:
..... it would be easy to order the film alone (in a very large quantity) from either Ilford or Kodak.

14 years ago, I asked Ilford (strictly speaking, Harman, who owned Ilford by then) exactly this.
The answer was an emphatic "No", as (inter alia) it was almost impossible to do it by hand fault-free, even in a film factory.

They did not mention it, but is there not also an antihalation dye behind the emulsion on 220? So the stuff they roll on 120 is not really the same starting material.

pentaxuser · Oct 28, 2021

Isn't the basis for this whole thread now gone in view of Disconnekt's new thread on 220's arrival plus the arrival of a Shanghai film representative on that thread?

pentaxuser

Huss · Oct 28, 2021

pentaxuser said:
Isn't the basis for this whole thread now gone in view of Disconnekt's new thread on 220's arrival plus the arrival of a Shanghai film representative on that thread?

pentaxuser

Well, the interesting thing about that representative is he (?) claims that the stuff I got was not official. And yet I contacted the company directly. Also no mention/apologies/offer to make it right for the garbage defective film that I bought.
Just that this time it will be better. If they want to gain trust, they should ship out for free some sample rolls so we can verify those claims, especially seeing that the price has now be jacked up.

MattKing · Oct 28, 2021

A Stuart said:
14 years ago, I asked Ilford (strictly speaking, Harman, who owned Ilford by then) exactly this.
The answer was an emphatic "No", as (inter alia) it was almost impossible to do it by hand fault-free, even in a film factory.

They did not mention it, but is there not also an antihalation dye behind the emulsion on 220? So the stuff they roll on 120 is not really the same starting material.

You didn't offer to order enough . Thousands of rolls, of course - enough to justify a complete run, including the necessary edge printing.
And it would have to be a different emulsion than found on Ilford or Kodak branded films, because of their unwillingness to permit re-branding of those films.
As I understand it, the anti-halation capabilities are also built into 120 as well. Perhaps because they once were available in 220 as well.

A Stuart · Oct 28, 2021

pentaxuser said:
Isn't the basis for this whole thread now gone in view of Disconnekt's new thread on 220's arrival plus the arrival of a Shanghai film representative on that thread?

pentaxuser

Thanks for the reply. For the benefit of any other readers, I suspect this is the thread pentaxuser refers to: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/shanghai-gp3-100-in-220-now-available.187056/
I did consider re-phrasing the original question to Ilford as "How much would you give me for £1000 and if I mess it up it's my problem", in case they had thought I was only pestering them over half a dozen rolls..
Instead I bought a pile of it on ebay and am still living off a drawer in the freezer of Ilford b/w and Fuji Provia. At current ebay prices for out of date 220, I could sell a small fraction of it and recoup my original costs.

pentaxuser · Oct 28, 2021

Huss said:
Well, the interesting thing about that representative is he (?) claims that the stuff I got was not official. And yet I contacted the company directly. Also no mention/apologies/offer to make it right for the garbage defective film that I bought.
Just that this time it will be better. If they want to gain trust, they should ship out for free some sample rolls so we can verify those claims, especially seeing that the price has now be jacked up.

How about putting this post into the 220 Shanghai Available thread and see how the "Official Account " representative responds? If he is serious about wanting to have our feedback then testing out his desire for feedback is the best way, isn't it?

pentaxuser

Huss · Oct 28, 2021

pentaxuser said:
How about putting this post into the 220 Shanghai Available thread and see how the "Official Account " representative responds? If he is serious about wanting to have our feedback then testing out his desire for feedback is the best way, isn't it?

pentaxuser

Other people brought it up and he ignored it. I have no interest in engaging with a garbage product. He can prove otherwise by making things right.

edit - I see they asked, so I answered.

pentaxuser · Oct 28, 2021

You may be right to feel a form of unrequited love/ rejection from Shanghai and if that has finished your relationship with Shanghai then that's fine. The whole thread started on a fairly high note, perhaps too high a note in terms of expectations, and then for various reasons some disillusionment set which got worse as time wore on and participation increased. This may just be the way of the dynamics of a forum, any forum, on subjects such as this.

I am unsure of "Official Account's" seemingly sudden arrival on Photrio as well and have not made up my mind as to what Shanghai's "Official Account's " function and purpose is yet but if he has read the whole thread he may have concluded or reported back to his company Shanghai that we represent fairly infertile ground on which to scatter his Shanghai 220 seeds. I fear we may not appear to be the easiest of markets in which to sell

I note that Auer on the other thread has suggested to "Official Account" that he sends some samples to Photrio members to try out but it may be that as I have said, the above conclusion has been drawn and we have reached the stage where those curious about the film and having a strong desire for 220 will go ahead and buy anyway and others having decided that Shanghai fails to met their expectations will not.

If Shanghai has reached that conclusion then we may not see "Official Account" very often, if at all

I should add that I am not trying to express an opinion on the respective "rights" and wrongs" I am just trying to provide my own overview of where I suspect we are now

pentaxuser

OrientPoint · Oct 28, 2021

pentaxuser said:
I am unsure of "Official Account's" seemingly sudden arrival on Photrio as well and have not made up my mind as to what Shanghai's "Official Account's " function and purpose is yet but if he has read the whole thread he may have concluded or reported back to his company Shanghai that we represent fairly infertile ground on which to scatter his Shanghai 220 seeds. I fear we may not appear to be the easiest of markets in which to sell

If this forum is "infertile ground" for selling 220 film, then I wonder where exactly is the market for it? I would think that a significant percentage of the world's prospective 220 film consumers are on this forum.

220 is a niche within a niche, and as much as I enjoy using long rolls of MF, length and (sometime) convenience certainly aren't enough to overcome terrible quality. Especially at prices that are on the same level with Ilford and Kodak.

Huss · Oct 28, 2021

pentaxuser said:
.. but it may be that as I have said, the above conclusion has been drawn and we have reached the stage where those curious about the film and having a strong desire for 220 will go ahead and buy anyway and others having decided that Shanghai fails to met their expectations will not.

I was the former - excited and eager to try it out as it was new 220 film! - then became the latter after having tried it and seeing how bad it was.

Would results like this showing scratches and uneven emulsion meet anyone's expectations?

pentaxuser · Oct 29, 2021

O.K. Huss and I understand your frustrations As I said I am not trying to pass comments on the rights and wrongs here but simply summing up where we might be. However I note that Shanghai appears to want to continue its participation on Photrio in the other thread and there are signs that it may be recognising its film's shortcomings and wants to do something about it

It would look as if "Official Account" is not a film technician but a "front man" who may be the only one who has the necessary command of written English to communicate well enough with us. His reaction to our collective annoyance of his statement on XRay does at least hint at there being good intentions but clearly we may have to expect that communications may not be as smooth as is the case with Ilford, Adox etc

I think that realistically we should not expect the same kind of consistent quality that we expect from the likes of Ilford but hopefully things can only get better if Shanghai has a real desire to establish itself as a film producer

It would seem that it will be the only 220 producer for a long time to come. It may be the only company for whom its facilities allow it to even try to make 220 and not lose money

pentaxuser

faberryman · Oct 29, 2021

Are there any advantages to 220 other than more shots per roll? Is that what all the angst is about? Not having to reload as often? Film enthusiasts are always saying they like shooting film because it slows them down and now they want to speed up. What's the hurry? It seems to me that 12 exposures is the perfect length. Otherwise, you might as well just buy a digital camera and some 512GB memory cards.

Huss · Oct 29, 2021

faberryman said:
Are there any advantages to 220 other than more shots per roll? Is that what all the angst is about? Not having to reload as often? Film enthusiasts are always saying they like shooting film because it slows them down and now they want to speed up. What's the hurry? It seems to me that 12 exposures is the perfect length. Otherwise, you might as well just buy a digital camera and some 512GB memory cards.

I only get 8 w my gw690

Cholentpot · Oct 29, 2021

pentaxuser said:
O.K. Huss and I understand your frustrations As I said I am not trying to pass comments on the rights and wrongs here but simply summing up where we might be. However I note that Shanghai appears to want to continue its participation on Photrio in the other thread and there are signs that it may be recognising its film's shortcomings and wants to do something about it

It would look as if "Official Account" is not a film technician but a "front man" who may be the only one who has the necessary command of written English to communicate well enough with us. His reaction to our collective annoyance of his statement on XRay does at least hint at there being good intentions but clearly we may have to expect that communications may not be as smooth as is the case with Ilford, Adox etc

I think that realistically we should not expect the same kind of consistent quality that we expect from the likes of Ilford but hopefully things can only get better if Shanghai has a real desire to establish itself as a film producer

It would seem that it will be the only 220 producer for a long time to come. It may be the only company for whom its facilities allow it to even try to make 220 and not lose money

pentaxuser

Dunno Mr. Pentaxuser.

Sounds like a bit of soft expectations. If you'd rep a car parts company and a shop of enthusiasts complain about a part and you spout some malarkey you'd get laughed out of the shop.

As my Grandmother says 'Don't pour tea on my head and tell me it's raining but expect to be excused because you only speak Russian'

Auer · Oct 29, 2021

Cholentpot said:
Dunno Mr. Pentaxuser.

Sounds like a bit of soft expectations. If you'd rep a car parts company and a shop of enthusiasts complain about a part and you spout some malarkey you'd get laughed out of the shop.

As my Grandmother says 'Don't pour tea on my head and tell me it's raining but expect to be excused because you only speak Russian'

Don't mess with Grams.

I wrote to Shanghai film about their 220 availability

PhotoJim

David A. Goldfarb

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Huss

David A. Goldfarb

Moderator

ic-racer

BrianShaw

Sirius Glass

Lachlan Young

Agulliver

Huss

A Stuart

pentaxuser

Huss

MattKing

Moderator

A Stuart

pentaxuser

Huss

pentaxuser

OrientPoint

Huss

pentaxuser

faberryman

Huss

Cholentpot

Auer

I wrote to Shanghai film about their 220 availability

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