I always thought that I wanted a Hasselblad.

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CBG

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I think it is all about what one needs and one's preferences. I had a RB and a Hasselblad. Great cameras. But, they're sold now, and I have P67s. I found I far prefer the way one holds the P67, and have found the 45mm is just about the perfect focal length on 6x7 for me. I can't argue that the P67 is better built, because it's not. Nor does it have the bellows and consistent filter size of the RB. But for 99% of what I am doing right now, it is better. It has the most essential elements; 6x7 format, a very good lens that's wide enough, and the way to hold it suits me. I like the P67 II and the 45mm enough that am shooting far more roll film that I would have thought. I bought one mainly as a viewfinder for larger format shooting and it kind of snuck up on me.
 

Sirius Glass

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CBG,

The bottom line is that the "best" camera depends on what one is done and what feel comfortable to them. When I sold cameras, I would bring out cameras that would fit the customer's hand, not the one with the highest commission, nor most expensive, nor most popular, nor most "professional".

Steve
 

Charles Webb

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For what it is worth, I have used them both, Pentax 6x7 and the 6x6 Hasselblad for the many, many years, I quickly learned to hate the square format, but hung on using them. I was working in the magazine illustration business at that time. I have only owned one Pentax 6x7 still do in fact. The images color B&W and chrome are excellent and much superior to any Hasselblad I ever owned. I also own several of them, but must mention I have totally worn out two 500C's. My later model blads have been the source of many headaches and I don't feel the optics today are nearly as good as they once were. My sharpest and best transparencys were made with a Rollei 2.8E and a Rollei 3.5. Nothing in the Hasselblad line or the Pentax line can come close to the Rollei negs and Trans. The Pentax 6x7 trans and negs are very close to the Rollei quality, but remember only close. Were I looking to move into medium format today I am not quite sure what I would look for. Most deffinitely not a square format and most likely I would stay with Pentax. Hasselblad makes a good camera, but it handles like a boat anchor. Pentax can challenge the boat anchor with it's weight, but in my mind the Pentax lenses make it the best choice. Using a Hasselblad for portraits is a downer, the head size is difficult enlarge since each lens in the line create nearly the exact same size head size as the 80mm Planar. To do head and shoulders the head size on the negative/Trans is so small that the actual image is nearly the same proportion as one done with 35mm. Joe Karsh liked em,
but I am not J.K.

I have more than paid for my rights to say Hasselblad is not all it's
cracjked up to be. It is nothing more than a tool, and should not be an object to idolize. It is not as many believe "The Holy Grail" of all picture making machines.

My opinion based on years experience with 6x6 6x7 tools,

C Webb
 

Sparky

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I've never, ever, ever had a 'blad that I managed to jam (well, at least that I couldn't un-jam myself). Although I've only ever had 500C/Ms. I never saw a reason to use another body. The only way you can do it is to be sloppy when you put the lens on. By keeping in decent habits - it should never happen.

I like them because they're dead simple cameras - so little to go wrong! much more than others one might compare them to.
 

Q.G.

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Using a Hasselblad for portraits is a downer, the head size is difficult enlarge since each lens in the line create nearly the exact same size head size as the 80mm Planar. To do head and shoulders the head size on the negative/Trans is so small that the actual image is nearly the same proportion as one done with 35mm. Joe Karsh liked em,
but I am not J.K.

To each his own, and all that, but there are a few things in there that might put people on a wrong footing.

First, the minimum focussing distance/field of view of a lens is of course not what makes one lens more suitable for a certain type of photography than another.
In anything but very long range photography (in which minimum fields of view are of no imprtance at all), you pick focal lengths for the working distance, and the perspective that creates.

And when doing heads and shoulders, comparing such done on different formats, the size of, say, the head is directly proportional to the format size.
Bigger on both 6x6 and 6x7 than on 35 mm format. Not much of a difference betweee 6x6 and 6x7.
 

Sirius Glass

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... and I don't feel the optics today are nearly as good as they once were.

Just a minor technical problem with that statement. Almost all the Hasselblad lenses use the same prescription of the original lenses. The new lenses have better coatings and some were slightly revised to closer focusing. Both of which can only be considered improvements.

Are you saying that it is your considered experience that new photons behave differently that the photons in the past? Such logic puts me on the fast track to discounting anything you say.

Steve
 

Sparky

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Just a minor technical problem with that statement. Almost all the Hasselblad lenses use the same prescription of the original lenses. The new lenses have better coatings and some were slightly revised to closer focusing. Both of which can only be considered improvements.

Are you saying that it is your considered experience that new photons behave differently that the photons in the past? Such logic puts me on the fast track to discounting anything you say.

Steve

There are times when (even with Zeiss lenses) that formulas get altered to go with a cheaper glass (esp. with the advent of supercomputing etc) that may not give QUITE the performance of a time-tested formula. Lens casings (i.e. the barrel) tend to get cheaper and crappier as time goes on - all brass in favor of plastic alloy composites do no image a favor! So- I'm just saying that as the cost goes down, compromises are let in to the design. Simply that there IS a case to suggest that newer lenses CAN be, in fact, worse. In some ways.
 

Sirius Glass

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There are times when (even with Zeiss lenses) that formulas get altered to go with a cheaper glass (esp. with the advent of supercomputing etc) that may not give QUITE the performance of a time-tested formula. Lens casings (i.e. the barrel) tend to get cheaper and crappier as time goes on - all brass in favor of plastic alloy composites do no image a favor! So- I'm just saying that as the cost goes down, compromises are let in to the design. Simply that there IS a case to suggest that newer lenses CAN be, in fact, worse. In some ways.

But Zeiss did not switch the glass in the Hasselblad lenses.
 

Sparky

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But Zeiss did not switch the glass in the Hasselblad lenses.

I'll bet you they did, Sirius... probably a few times. It doesn't mean they'd announce it. But I'll bet you if you could comb through their engineering archives - you'd find something. There were probably LOTS of times when they had to substitute glass because they could no longer get it from the same source. And hell- just THINK about it for a second. There are LOTS of times when a load of flint or crown glass blanks whose refractive index would drift out of spec. I'll guarantee you that's happened LOTS of times!
 

Q.G.

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I'll bet you they did, Sirius... probably a few times. It doesn't mean they'd announce it. But I'll bet you if you could comb through their engineering archives - you'd find something. There were probably LOTS of times when they had to substitute glass because they could no longer get it from the same source. And hell- just THINK about it for a second. There are LOTS of times when a load of flint or crown glass blanks whose refractive index would drift out of spec. I'll guarantee you that's happened LOTS of times!

They didn't.

Anyway, you can't change glass for cheaper glass, having the same properties.
If it doesn't have the same properties, the design is of no use and you need to start again. If it does, it is the same as the one that would be more expensive, so why would it be cheaper?

Zeiss, by the way, make their own glass, are their own source. Schott is part of the Zeiss conglomerate, ever since Carl Zeiss, Ernst Abbe and Otto Schott got together in the 1870s.

And Schott is very capable of producing glass that is in spec.
You know, it's not just a freak accident that they do. Nor that they do that routinely.

So i can guarantee you that it never happened.
 

Sparky

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I think you give them too much credit, Q.G... personally. And yes, that's my opinion. But I don't think ANY manufacturer - no matter HOW fastidious, can live up to that over, let's say 100 years. There are good zeiss lenses and bad ones. We've all used them. There's variability in Q.C. - but not Q.G. apparently! This is the problem when photography becomes a religion and one such as me would dare question the 'word of Zeiss'... ha
 

Q.G.

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Well, Sparky... you can dismiss being professional about what you do as being religious. You can also try to shrug criticism off as being religious.

The plain and simple truth (of the non-religious kind) however is that what you said was BS. :wink:

It really is.
Why, pray tell, do you want to suggest that someone said that everything Zeiss did and does is perfect, while noone did? Who gave Zeiss too much credit, how, and when?
That is indeed the problem when opinions become a religion, and one such as you would not dare to question the factual incorrectness of what you utter in a public place. :D

So how about it? You tell us how you can keep a lens design going, but use different glass.
Tell us how Zeiss would be caught out by a supplier not supplying what they want them to supply when they themselves are their own supplier of glass.
And you know do who it was who started making glass according to specifications?
Because it sure sounds like you take the way you would do things, and assume everyone else must do it the same way too. :D

Sure there is variability in Q.C. And not all Zeiss lenses (of one batch) are equally good. But all are within specs. No worries.
There's nothing religious about it, i.e. it's not a matter of believe, and of believe only. It's the result of being professional about what you do.
 

Sparky

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Wow... you're tenacious, aren't you...? (insert smiley). Well- before I attempt to answer any of that - maybe I can ask you if you think the same would be true of someone like Sigma?

The truth of the matter is that you nor I have any intimate knowledge of the internal workings of Zeiss. But I do know that photographers tend to be profoundly religious about equipment - and it's something I try to discourage. But heck - I'm no stranger to the Germans and the Swiss... I know more than a lot of people that these people are just people like anyone - and just as prone to the problems inherent in the manufacturing process as anyone. Properties are variable. shit happens. Problems arise. It's my contention that yes, Zeiss has snuck around a little behind their consumers backs and messed with lens formulations without telling them. There's a lot more argument for why they would do such a thing than why not. Again - just my opinion. You're welcome to think I'm 'full of it' if you wish. No skin off my back. Part of the reason I'm taking this approach however - is that I see you as being (it seems to me) overly zealous. And I'm trying to figure out the source of your emotional attachment to this line of reasoning. Or maybe you just like a good argument...! haha.

As for your more pointed question - well... I think it would be a fairly simple thing to adjust a lens formulation for a drifting refractive index... I mean - just change the curvature of the corresponding element and run the calculations through the whole design and go back and forth until you have a winner. I don't think there's any huge mystery to the science and art of lens design. All I'm trying to say is that they probably have a strategy for dealing with aberrations (no pun intended!) in their supply chain. And they're probably also highly motivated to cut costs and improve profit margins. They're a company after all. Is that not what companies DO? It seems reasonable to me. If it doesn't seem reasonable to you - I can't help that - but nor will I try to force my thinking on you.

Anyway - I'm not sure what else to say on the matter - and I'm really not so invested in drawing this out to some insanely long battle arguing such small academic points. I'm sure you think me flippant in my comments. Who's to say? You're certainly welcome to state an opinion, as long as you allow me to reserve the right to state mine... I think i need an advil now... heh.
 

Sparky

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Anyway, you can't change glass for cheaper glass, having the same properties.

By the way- just so you understand where I'm coming from... that's not at all what I was trying to suggest - that they were wanting to use 'cheaper glass' - I don't think there's any such thing anyway... but I was trying to suggest that with the advent of supercomputers etc... that there was an opportunity to change formulas so use LESS GLASS... which would be a cheaper design to manufacture. That's all. Lest you think I'd ever accuse zeiss of using 'cheap glass' (the horror!!). :smile:
 

Q.G.

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Yes, there certainly is something like cheaper glass. Depends on how strict your specs are, and how close you want it to be to specification.

The advent of computers in lens design meant more glass being used, not less.
The more glass, the more complicated the calculations. Those modern 1,000 element IF AF lenses we have today would not have been possible if they too had had to have been calculated using a mechanical desktop calculator. Now we see nothing but such thingies.

Anyway, the thing still is that Steve was right: most Zeiss lenses for Hasselblad (and Rollei) have remained unchanged since they were first introduced.
The few other ones weren't changed either, but replaced by better ones. Despite you believing so, not something a manufacturer would keep a secret (wouldn't make sense to hush something like that up, would it?). So, for instance, a Tele-Tessar was replaced by an Tele-Apotessar, another Tele-Tessar was replaced by a Superachromat, etc.

One exception: the Biogon was recalculated 'recently' (a relative term). True to Zeiss, the new one is just as good (though different) as the old one. But not better, showing that even though computers made things possible that weren't before, they did now what they were doing 60 years ago too. (But pointing out that professionals know their stuff doesn't sit well with you, does it? :wink:)
 
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Q.G.

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And now that i am awake: :wink:

By the way- just so you understand where I'm coming from... that's not at all what I was trying to suggest - that they were wanting to use 'cheaper glass' - I don't think there's any such thing anyway...

There are times when (even with Zeiss lenses) that formulas get altered to go with a cheaper glass (esp. with the advent of supercomputing etc) that may not give QUITE the performance of a time-tested formula. [...]

So, you weren't trying to suggest such a thing? Really?
:wink:
 

fdisilvestro

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I think that the Biogon formula was changed for environmental reasons, not because of cheaper glass. As fas as I know, the new formula is lead-free.
 

Sparky

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And now that i am awake: :wink:
So, you weren't trying to suggest such a thing? Really?
:wink:

Honest to god, QG. Not. I was trying to suggest it would be well worth their while, cheaper and smarter to reformulate to something that uses LESS glass, where possible.. if it becomes less expensive to manufacture - and the lens is just as great... why not??? I wasn't ever trying to suggest that they compromise on their quality at ALL. But a large manufacturing company like Zeiss, I'm sure, has a LOT of pressure on it to save money where it's rational and where it doesn't compromise the quality of their product...

that's all I was thinking I guess...
 

Q.G.

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Honest to god, QG. Not. I was trying to suggest it would be well worth their while, cheaper and smarter to reformulate to something that uses LESS glass, where possible.. if it becomes less expensive to manufacture - and the lens is just as great... why not??? I wasn't ever trying to suggest that they compromise on their quality at ALL. But a large manufacturing company like Zeiss, I'm sure, has a LOT of pressure on it to save money where it's rational and where it doesn't compromise the quality of their product...

that's all I was thinking I guess...

Don't forget that Zeiss sell products at a price reflecting that those are of uncompromisingly high quality. And that people happily (well...) pay that price. So they are doing pretty well.
So i don't know about that pressure... what pressure? :wink:
 

Sirius Glass

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They didn't.

Anyway, you can't change glass for cheaper glass, having the same properties.
If it doesn't have the same properties, the design is of no use and you need to start again. If it does, it is the same as the one that would be more expensive, so why would it be cheaper?

Zeiss, by the way, make their own glass, are their own source. Schott is part of the Zeiss conglomerate, ever since Carl Zeiss, Ernst Abbe and Otto Schott got together in the 1870s.

And Schott is very capable of producing glass that is in spec.
You know, it's not just a freak accident that they do. Nor that they do that routinely.

So i can guarantee you that it never happened.

Well, Sparky... you can dismiss being professional about what you do as being religious. You can also try to shrug criticism off as being religious.

The plain and simple truth (of the non-religious kind) however is that what you said was BS. :wink:

It really is.
Why, pray tell, do you want to suggest that someone said that everything Zeiss did and does is perfect, while noone did? Who gave Zeiss too much credit, how, and when?
That is indeed the problem when opinions become a religion, and one such as you would not dare to question the factual incorrectness of what you utter in a public place. :D

So how about it? You tell us how you can keep a lens design going, but use different glass.
Tell us how Zeiss would be caught out by a supplier not supplying what they want them to supply when they themselves are their own supplier of glass.
And you know do who it was who started making glass according to specifications?
Because it sure sounds like you take the way you would do things, and assume everyone else must do it the same way too. :D

Sure there is variability in Q.C. And not all Zeiss lenses (of one batch) are equally good. But all are within specs. No worries.
There's nothing religious about it, i.e. it's not a matter of believe, and of believe only. It's the result of being professional about what you do.

Yes, there certainly is something like cheaper glass. Depends on how strict your specs are, and how close you want it to be to specification.

The advent of computers in lens design meant more glass being used, not less.
The more glass, the more complicated the calculations. Those modern 1,000 element IF AF lenses we have today would not have been possible if they too had had to have been calculated using a mechanical desktop calculator. Now we see nothing but such thingies.

Anyway, the thing still is that Steve was right: most Zeiss lenses for Hasselblad (and Rollei) have remained unchanged since they were first introduced.
The few other ones weren't changed either, but replaced by better ones. Despite you believing so, not something a manufacturer would keep a secret (wouldn't make sense to hush something like that up, would it?). So, for instance, a Tele-Tessar was replaced by an Tele-Apotessar, another Tele-Tessar was replaced by a Superachromat, etc.

One exception: the Biogon was recalculated 'recently' (a relative term). True to Zeiss, the new one is just as good (though different) as the old one. But not better, showing that even though computers made things possible that weren't before, they did now what they were doing 60 years ago too. (But pointing out that professionals know their stuff doesn't sit well with you, does it? :wink:)

I think that the Biogon formula was changed for environmental reasons, not because of cheaper glass. As fas as I know, the new formula is lead-free.

Don't forget that Zeiss sell products at a price reflecting that those are of uncompromisingly high quality. And that people happily (well...) pay that price. So they are doing pretty well.
So i don't know about that pressure... what pressure? :wink:

So as I originally said, ZEISS did not make any optical changes on almost all the Hasselblad [and Rollei] lenses.

I did not say a word about Sigma or any other companies.


Thank you, Q.G. and fdisilvestro, for jumping in and filling in the details. I do not have the time to do research that others did not do due diligence and merely shot from the hip. BIY, it is better than use a viewfinder than shooting from the hip while taking photographs, not just posting in internet.

Steve
 

Sparky

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I hope all misconceptions have been cleared up now...(!!!) :smile:
That's another problem with the internet - spending hours arguing a misunderstood concept... oh well.. :sad:
 

lxdude

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As for your more pointed question - well... I think it would be a fairly simple thing to adjust a lens formulation for a drifting refractive index... I mean - just change the curvature of the corresponding element and run the calculations through the whole design and go back and forth until you have a winner. I don't think there's any huge mystery to the science and art of lens design. All I'm trying to say is that they probably have a strategy for dealing with aberrations (no pun intended!) in their supply chain. And they're probably also highly motivated to cut costs and improve profit margins. They're a company after all. Is that not what companies DO? It seems reasonable to me.

Ok, I have to chime in on this one.
What you say is ridiculous, to anyone who has manufacturing experience. I have experience in both the production side and the QC side.
You betray your ignorance in these statements. You think that it's as simple as just recalculating and just changing the curvature of an element: what do think that costs?

I have seen a lot of expensive manufactured products get scrapped because they are out of spec. Sometimes a product can be reworked until it is in spec., sometimes it can get a variance, but usually it is scrapped. It's just not worth it to mess with it. It's quicker, easier and simpler to remake the product, than to mess with fixing discrepant product. To start custom making batches of parts to match discrepant material is to introduce variables no one wants. It introduces uncertainty and creates hassles. Why spend a bunch of time and effort to make something that's not as good as it's supposed to be?
I've scrapped orders with 2% bad parts, because the time taken to sort good from bad cost more than they were worth.

I have seen instances where discrepant materials have had to be used for some reason, and I mean material out of spec enough that the difference was not just academic. Every time was a huge hassle, and every time was due to a failure somewhere. It usually resulted in making little or no profit or losing money on the order. It was always the result of the failure of someone to do their job. It was chronic in poorly managed companies, and non-existant in well managed ones.

I once was ordered by my boss to make an adapter for several thousand knobs that a purchaser had ordered without realizing they wouldn't fit. The adapters could not exceed 7 cents cost because that was the price differential between the right knobs and the wrong ones. All my other work came to a halt while I came up with something that would work, along with an engineer to okay it, and all this was under the table. No part number, no job number, setup time slopped into other jobs, material provided by purchasing who stole it here and there from other jobs. I produced the adapter, the purchaser and his boss got their asses covered, my boss and the engineer got a favor to call in on purchasing, and I got the fun of busting my ass to make up for lost production.
That's no way to do things. And that was a poorly managed company.

Any time you change one thing it changes other things. And no one wants those headaches. If refraction is out, what about dispersal, and every other characteristic?

Materials are seldom a major part of the cost in manufacturing an object. Overhead and labor will typically represent a far greater amount of the cost of a product. The labor and delay involved in recalculating and resetting a machine will exceed the savings from using the discrepant glass. I would think, but don't know, that rejected glass could be remelted and brought to spec, at least in some cases.

Here is what would be required at a minimum to use the discrepant material, and don't forget every stage is going to require paperwork to be generated, reviewed, handled, signed off on, and archived.:

>QC discovers the glass is discrepant, and rejects it.

>If not scrapped outright by glass manufacturing, it goes to a Material Review Board, usually composed of representatives of manufacturing, engineering and QC, to determine cause and course of action.

>MRB (or whatever Zeiss calls it) decides to use the material.

>Engineering recalculates optical formula and produces new production spec.

>Spec. is reviewed and approved by optical and mechanical engineering, then checked and approved by quality control. Then checked and accepted by manufacturing. Then signed off on by management of those departments, then by higher management, possibly to VP level.

(This a minimum. There are actually quality engineers, manufacturing engineers, production planners, and others whose input and work will be needed. The delay may create a bottleneck in getting other materials produced, and may make the whole idea unworkable. Recalculating takes computer time, in addition to engineering time, away from other projects, and disrupts projects underway.)

>Manufacturing modifies machine setups to produce parts to modified spec.
First article part (aka "First good part) is produced for each phase of production. First articles are checked and rejected or accepted.

>After acceptance, the limited run begins, each step in turn. At the conclusion of the run, with parts accepted to modified spec, all machines will have to be set up to original spec. if more of the same part are to be made right away. Unless of course, the next batch of glass is somehow out of spec, and the process will have to be repeated for that batch. Unless it's identical to the first out of spec batch.


Zeiss has been making optical glass for a very long time. They know how to do it. They know how to hold tolerances. They know how avoid problems. They did not get where they are by screwing around with non-conforming materials.
 
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